"Tom Cooper" wrote in message ...
"Emmanuel.Gustin" wrote in message
...
Kevin Brooks wrote:

snip

But AIM-54 is now a relatively old weapon (although upgraded
several times) and it was designed primarily to defend the
fleet against Soviet bombers attacking at high and medium
altitude, launching the very big Soviet cruise missiles of
the period. The threat has changed, the attack profile of
an enemy force would now probably bring them in just a few
feet above the waves, only poppping up to fire their missiles.

Emanuel,
already the Tu-22Ms could attack approaching at low levels: also, the Kh-22M
had a low-level trajectory selectable.

In the 1990s the threat has changed only in so far that it became more
dangerous: the stuff that could now be eventually attacking USN carriers are
such things like supersonic cruise missiles, and Su-30s that can fire back
(which the Tu-22M-3s couldn't).

Well, the fact that we are not exactly looking at a likely
confrontation with a robust Soviet long range naval aviation threat,
as we were in the bad ol' days, does seem to indicate that the threat
of a long range, massed air attack against the CV's (which is what the
AIM-54 was to counter) is greatly reduced; not *gone*, but diminished
quite significantly IMO. That you don't think so would tend to beg the
question--where, and who, do you see posing this "more dangerous"
threat that supersedes the worst of what we faced in the eighties?


It is likely that AIM-120 has better performance against
low-flying targets, although AIM-54's range against
high-flying targets is still unrivalled. The F-18E/AIM-120
combination may actually provide a better fleet defense
than F-14/AIM-54.

I strongly doubt this: no version of the F/A-18 matches the speed and/or
endurance of the F-14 - especially not the combination of these two
characteristics.

And with the advent of Aegis, the need for that ever-expanding CAP has
been reduced a bit. What airborne threat out there do you see that the
F/A-18 with AIM-120, supported by AWACS and the normal aerial
refueling packages, and backstopped by Aegis-equipped CG's and DDG's,
can't handle?


As you certainly know, Emanuel, it makes a huge difference if one is
intercepting an incoming threat some 100km away from the carrier, or 250km
away.

Back in the days when you were looking at a realistic possibility of a
saturation attack, that would be correct; but those days are now in
the past, thank goodness.


As next, given the lack of speed and endurance, there is also the lack of
range: the AIM-120 can't - and will for the next ten years or so also not be
able to - intercept enemy at such ranges like the AIM-54 can.

It doesn't have to. And neither can the AIM-54 reliably operate at the
lower altitudes that the AIM-120 has proven to be quite capable of
handling.

The result of
this is that the slower, and shorter-ranged F/A-18s, armed only with
AIM-120s, are in a danger of literaly being overrun by faster,
longer-ranged, and fighters - such like Su-30s - that carry weapons with a
similar (or potentially better) range to that of the AIM-120.

Those Su-30's, if they are toting external weapons viable against a
CVN, are not going to be able to seriously outpace the F/A-18's; not
to mention the fact that they will usually find the Hornets *between*
them and their target, not in a tail chase scenario.


Given the fact that the pk of the AIM-54 in combat against threats of its
time was higher than the pk of the AIM-120 in combat against the threats of
its time, it is doubtfull any F/A-18 would have a serious chance of
intercepting and stopping - just for example - a formation of four such
opponents like Su-30s (regardless how far out from the carrier), without
either coming too late on the station, or being outranged by enemy weapons
and shot down in return, or outrun, or outmaneuvered.... or all of this
combined.

That sounds illogical. You have to grade the AIM-54 against the
threats of the *present* time. And your entire Su-30 scenario is less
than convincing; you keep forgetting that the CVN is the center of the
likely engagement circle, the F/A-18's are in the next ring, and then,
from outside, come your vaunted Su-30's--so how the heck are they
gonna outrun, outgun, and outmaneuver those F-18's that they have to
first get *by*? Not to mention that the vaunted AIM-54 has, in US
service, a combat record of what...zero victories?


Given that also the new cruise-missiles became much more sophisticated,
faster and longer-ranged than such earlier stuff like Kh-22/AS-4 Kitchens
(which were nifty and malfunctioning weapons any way), this threat did
actually not diminish but is increasing, while the AIM-120-armed F/A-18 has
much less chance of intercepting such threats (especially because of the
lack of speed and the weapons-range) than even the 20-years older
AIM-54-armed F-14...

No, the threat is not increasing. It is still there, but nowhere
*near* the scope of the threat that the AIM-54 was intended to defend
against (unless, of course, you think that we are still facing hordes
of Tu-22's, Tu-95's, and even Tu-16's, streaming from the Kola and
bound for the carrier groups in the North Atlantic....).

Brooks


Tom Cooper