On Fri, 21 Nov 2003 04:47:47 GMT, "Dudley Henriques"
wrote:


"WaltBJ" wrote in message
. com...
There's a mix here involved. Max G available, G onset (how fast can
you load it up) and corner velocity - the minimum speed do you need to
generate the lift necessary attain max G. --snip--
Walt BJ

Yeah, it's a multiples thing all right, especially if you throw corner in
there . Below corner you're aerodynamically limited and above you're
structurally limited; go high enough and you're thrust limited as well......
but just considering g alone which was his question, and forgetting rate and
radius, you can pull max g all the way out to the right side of the envelope
until either you or the airplane starts complaining :-)
But I agree with you. You can't even begin to discuss fighter performance
using a one aspect only condition. There's just too much involved, and the
whole thing has to be integrated into the discussion for anything to make
sense at all.
Dudley Henriques

I was going to jump into this yesterday, but delayed and "lo" I've
developed insight. I was going to dump my usual tirade about tactics,
training, weapons, mutual support, etc. Then, I returned to the
question.

It isn't about "fighter", it's about agility. "How indicative of
agility are max G numbers?"

I'd have to say, only minimally indicative. The 105 had a max positive
G of 8.67--a structure limit which was virtually impossible to attain,
except instantaneously. Airspeed bleedoff, if you get anywhere up to
those kinds of numbers meant you couldn't sustain for long at all.

The F-4, conversely had a 7.33 max, much lower, but no one will
challenge that the F-4 had greater agility than a 'Chief.

Clearly there's a "critical mass" sort of minimum G required to get
you into the A/A game. You don't go hassling with a 2.5 G limit MiG-25
even though you have weapons, thrust and airspeed. Corner velocity is
a consideration, attainable onset rates, sustainable G-loads,
rate/radius numbers, roll rates, all are players.

And, who can quantify that elusive "experience" factor. Doing
instructor continuation training in AT-38s at Fighter Lead-In, I
couldn't begin to pull the sustained G while twisted around in my seat
looking at my own rudder, but I could get the "big picture" of where
the battle was going and kick the young guys' butts at much lower G.

Sort of the old and young bull metaphor---young bull sees the herd and
says "lets run down and screw one." The old bull says, "lets walk down
and screw them all."