In article ,
"Paul J. Adam" wrote:

In message , Chad Irby
writes
"Paul J. Adam" wrote:
Trouble is, all the guns you like won't stop #4 of one of the escort
sections getting an unseen Atoll up the tailpipe

And all the missiles won't help much in this case, either.

Why not? An aircraft diving away in afterburner is an excellent missile
target.

Not that the "unseen Atoll up the tailpipe" is the *other* guy, and
won't help you defensively. You followed up your comment with:

Try that same attack against modern aircraft, and you'll still avoid the
guns shot: but you'll get a late-model Sidewinder for your pains, or an
AIM-120 as you extend.

Not if it's an "unseen Atoll up the tailpipe." Tis scneario means
"you're dead." What you just described is a "*seen* Atoll up the
tailpipe."

There seems to be this romantical view that fighter pilots, out of
ordnance and committed to their mission, will drop everything for a
fangs-out pursuit of a fleeing foe.

No, they're soldiers, and they'll use what they have available, like
they have for the last century.

Do you have the fuel for the prolonged tailchase required to get into
guns range, manoeuvre for the kill, then get home? Remember, the enemy
aircraft is ahead of you, out of range, with a substantial speed
advantage.

Really? How do you know? Maybe they ran out of missiles, have *no*
speed advantage at the monent, and are in a decent spot to get nailed.

It's funny how you took a fairly standard scenario, and suddenly started
changing it...

What happens when some of his friends join the party, you being down to
guns only?

Then you run. You see, in *my* scenario, pilots can think, and in
yours, they're overamped morons who are only in it for the blood.

So produce some numbers. Relative SAM losses per sortie, for instance?
I'm open to data, I just get wary about assertion and anecdote.

If you want to find that out, find it yourself. *You're* the one who
wants that data. Let us know how it goes. Until you do, that other
comparison is still pretty useless.

In other words, "don't confuse me with facts, my mind is made up".

Funny, that's what I just said about *you*. *You* are the guy who's
going against the last half-century of experience in jet fighter combat.
You're the one who has to prove sommething, and you're not doing it very
well so far.

When was the last air-to-air combat fratricide (by which I mean a shot
taken at an enemy aircraft diverted and destroyed a friendly)?

When's the last time we had a major air combat situation? All we've had
were "shoot down the one or two idiots dumb enough to get into the air"
since about 1991... although I read something recently about a Japanese
fighter lost to a Sidewinder in an exercise a year or so back.

--
cirby at cfl.rr.com

Remember: Objects in rearview mirror may be hallucinations.
Slam on brakes accordingly.