On Jan 6, 12:43*pm, bildan wrote:
On Jan 5, 11:22*pm, "
wrote:





A few of points:

1: The mixed traffic problem is an everyday occurrence at many sites
here in Germany. This is a planning and education opportunity. See:http://www.fsv-karlsruhe.de/fsv/serv...ionDispatcher?...
for a site where simultaneous power and winch launch takes place. Look
on the BGA site for more sites in English.

2: Cost? 15$ per launch is pretty high, but as this is a "commercial"
winch operation that is probably unavoidable. At our club we have
almost 15 years of cost information and our launches are 4€ (about
5-6$) and this includes long term capitalization for rebuilding the
winch every 10 years (as we are about to do this winter).

3: I consistently get 1200-1500 feet from our 3200 foot field and
looking at my logbook my average "escape" from pattern height is about
70% (stats from after I got my license). Our field is in an area with
suppressed thermal activity and we have no consistent "house thermal",
with a house thermal these rates would be better. And, I must confess,
some of our better pilots have rates approaching 80-90%.

4: We offer ab initio students a deal of 300€ for flights and training
to solo. Of course we have no cost for instructors as they are all
volunteers. This is a revenue neutral proposal for the club for most
students and even when it is not neutral it is still a good
recruitment tool. I know that the costs would be higher in the States
but this is to give some ideas on winch use.

5: Most students here in Germany learn to fly using a winch and go to
areotow later in their flight training. Some clubs give the first few
flights using areotow or a motor glider to speed up the learning and
then go to a winch. We only have a winch but most of our students are
ready for solo after a few months and certification after a season. Of
course we lose many at this point because the German written test is
very complex and we don't have the "weekend Ground School" programs
that are available in the States.

Also, I think (WAO) that users who learn from a winch feel much more
comfortable and may be safer when flying low i.e. "scratching around
low" as they spent their first 50 flights mostly below 1000 feet. And
of course they must learn to thermal away from this height to be able
to fly longer. You will always remember your first climb out in a
thermal you accomplish, maybe better that your solo. I can certainly
remember mine :`)

Bob

Bob, can you comment on German winch safety statistics?

Bill Daniels- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I tried to get these figures from the DAeC - no luck.
However, I got the statistics on glider launches split into aero-tow
and winch launches in the state of Northrhine-Westphalia (my old
stomping grounds). This state is not the most active soaring area in
Germany nor is it blessed with superb XC conditions many days of the
year. The overall number of glider flights is slightly declining but
the split between aero-tow and winch launches is slightly growing in
favor of winching. There are many fields similar in size of CCSC in
this area which winch exclusively due to housing developments growing
ever closer to the field.

Uli Neumann