On Sep 16, 6:05*am, BeechSundowner wrote:

Steven and I gave you the FAA source "read on the internet" *surely you can reciprocate? *http://www.faa.gov/airports/runway_safety/as a
reminder. *Otherwise, why would your word be of higher probative value then the FAA website?

Because I'm an instructor and I brought it up on the student forum I
feel obliged to "reciprocate" and clarify for other readers.
Apparently, telling you what I saw happen has no value to you so
clearly you don't respect my word. I'm not out here to engage in some
sort of penis-measuring contest with a couple of usenet know-it-alls,
if that's what this is going to turn into.

All current US pilots should be familiar with the NonMovement Area
Boundary. (AIM 2-3-6 c.) It's a solid yellow line with a broken yellow
line next to it. ."

The NMAB "delineates movement area under control of ATCT, from non-
movement area." According to the AIM, "These markings delineate the
movement area, ie, AREA UNDER AIR TRAFFIC CONTROL" [emphasis mine]
Specifically, per AC 150/340-18D :Standards for Airport Sign Systems"
and AC 150/5340-1J "Standards for Airport Markings", the NMAB is
"located on the boundary between movement and non-movement area" and
it's located to unsure wing clearance for taxiing aircraft. Additional
sources: AC-90-67 "Light Signals from the Control Tower for Ground
Vehicles, Equipment, an Personnel"

At KTTD, the Movement Area Boundary separates the Alpha and Bravo
taxiways from the parking areas, and according to Troutdale Tower
(Class D), it's a violation to cross it. It's been that way at least
since I started flying there in 1989.

I hope I have established clearly what a movement area is, and what
the boundary looks like.

The Pilot Guide to Airport Signs and Markings which is produced by the
FAA and available from the FAA Office of Runway Safety in Renton, WA,
says in bold, red, italicized letters: "ATC permission is ALWAYS
required to cross from the solid side to the dashed side." [emphasis
theirs] This source is freely available as a full-color quick
reference card that fits in the approach plate book. I'm not going to
post her e-mail address but I can post the mailing address if you
want. You might also order "A Pilot's Guide to Surface Operations",
"Airfield Procedures for Vehicles and Pedestrians" (it's a poster) and
the "Safe Surface Operations" CD-ROM.

I bet there isn't a CFI out here who hasn't taught students that you
need to get tower clearance before you cross the Non Movement Area
Boundary onto the taxiway.

Finally, from your own source: http://www.faa.gov/aso/runwaysafety/Docs/Training.ppt
defines the following:

" * Movement Area – Runways, taxiways, and other areas of an
airport which are used for taxiing, or hover taxiing, air taxiing,
takeoff, and landing of aircraft, exclusive of loading ramps and
aircraft parking areas. [Read that again.]

* Runway Incursion – Any occurrence at an airport involving an
aircraft, vehicle, person, or object on the ground that creates a
collision hazard or results in a loss of separation with an aircraft
taking off, intending to take off, landing, or intending to land."

I trust all of this has sufficient "probative value" to simply
reinforce my observation that two runway incursions were reported by
KTTD ATC to Seattle when a pedestrian (one) and an aircraft (two)
entered the Alpha Taxiway without clearance. It's not like I'm
claiming to have seen a flying saucer. I have the FAA rep's business
card but I'm certainly not about to post it here.

As for what's on the FAA website, I haven't found an official
definition of "holding out", but don't let them catch you doing it.
You don't want to make all of your aeronautical decisions based solely
on what you read on the FAA website.

-c
Commercial Pilot, CFI. KTTD