Ryan M. wrote in message ...

I was merely using those references (if you can call them that since
they are off the WEB) to illustrate that there is a large grey area
when your discussing the bombing of Warsaw and the actual intentions
behind the bombings. I'm sorry if that was not clear.

This is exceptionally foolish. Finding, something, anything to contradict
is an exercise on propaganda, it implies either no thought or a deliberate
attempt to try and distort the debate. On the internet you can find text to
say almost anything. Above all posting such text and then in the next post
denouncing it is plain stupid, why post material you think is wrong without
telling people of the fact? Why post the material at all?

13 September 1939, the Luftwaffe bombing of north Warsaw,
operation Wasserkante, 50 50 incendiary/high explosive mix,
targets may have included the ghetto. This raid had been
intended for 1 September as part of the initial strikes but delayed
to the second half of the day, then the second day. It was put
back on the agenda by the Luftwaffe as a reprisal for claimed
Polish crimes. On 11 September Hitler demanded Warsaw be
bombed on the 12th, a days delay was subsequently granted.
About 183 bomber sorties, there is evidence the middle ranking
officers changed some of the targets from those chosen by the
Generals to more military ones.

In addition, the daily Luftwaffe orders for this September 13th
operation repeated "Military Targets Only" and these targets were "to
be spared if situated in heavily populated city areas" (from the Sept.
2 Directive) These quotes are from the Luftwaffe War Diaries by Cajus
Bekker.

I see no attempt to confirm or contradict the idea middle level officers,
the bomb group commanders, altered some of the targets. General
Richthofen had control of these strikes and he was definitely interested
in the idea of morale attacks.

An interesting note on a war crime committed by the Poles are the
roughly 1000 Germans murdered by Polish troops on Sept. 3 in Blomberg,
in eastern Poland, who falsely claimed that they had been shot at. "An
estimated 13,000 Poles of German origin lost their lives in similar
circumstances." (pp.17 from A World In Flames, by Martin Kitchen)

Remarkable how so far we have the Germans busily following the
all rules of war almost to extremes and the Poles doing all the bad
things.


Any chance of a mention about what the SS was up to at the time?
Since claims of Polish atrocities were used as justification for
air strikes presumably claims of German atrocities can be used
in deciding not to surrender?

25 September 1939, Luftwaffe attack on Warsaw although the
official targets were meant to be military, the attack method
included Ju52s with men literally shovelling incendiaries out
of the door. Some 40,000 Polish deaths in Warsaw with 10%
of buildings destroyed and 40% heavily damaged due to air
strikes. Note this second strike was so inaccurate some
incendiaries fell amongst the German troops whose
commander asked for the bombing to stop, Hitler ordered
them to carry on. The smoke from the fires was also hampering
the artillery. Some 1,150 bomber sorties dropping 560 tonnes
of high explosive and 72 tonnes of incendiaries on this day.

You should also mention that on September 16th, after attempts by a
German emissary for the Poles to give up, a dozen Heinkel He-111 from
I. Gruppe/KG 4 flew over Warsaw and dropped 1 million leaflets calling
for the population to exit the area through the eastern exits in 12
hours should their military commander fail to accept the ultimatum.

Warsaw had a pre war population of 2.5 million, trying to move
that many people in 12 hours would be quite a challenge. Then
comes finding that many people food, water and shelter.

I understand the 18 September leaflets onward are on record as calling
for the city's surrender.

The next morning the Poles announced that they were sending an
emissary of their own to negotiate the evacuation of the Polish
citizens and hence the mass Luftwaffe raid planned for the 17th of
September did not take place. For whatever reason this negotiator did
not show up. The dropping of leaflets took place not only on the 16th
as mentioned above, but also on the 18th, 19th, 22nd, and 24th. During
all of this the roughly 100,000 Polish troops were setting up defences
within the city. It is at this point that the attack you accurately
portrayed took place.

The Germans were busy ranging guns and flying smaller scale
air strikes before the mass raid, the bad weather meant the
air effort was lower. Both sides were preparing to fight.

That the bombing attack included men shovelling incendiaries
out the door indicates claims of accurate strikes on purely military
targets are a joke.

In regards to the London bombing on Aug 24/25 I can only gather that
the targets for the night were the Rochester aircraft works, and the
oil tanks on the Thames. Obviously bombs fell on London, but it is
important to realize that the intent and orders for those operations
were not to attack cilivian targets. Goerings response (via
teleprinter signal) to the bomber squadrons the next morning are
recorded by the operations staff officer of KG1, Major Josef
Knobel..."It is to be reported forthwith which crews dropped bombs in
the London prohibited zone. The Supreme Commander reserves to himself
the personal punishment of the commanders concerned by remustering
them to the infantry."

Until the Luftwaffe started using sea mines suspended under parachutes
and fragmentation bombs on England the reality is all air forces were
officially after military targets. It is also the case all air forces hoped for
morale effects and were not too worried when bombs aimed at targets in
cities missed the target but hit the surrounding area.

In striking Rotterdam the Luftwaffe, as an institution, knew first hand from
Warsaw the probable results.

When the results came in about bombing accuracy the air forces simply
decided to keep up the city strikes, accepting the reality that the many
bombs that missed the official target would hit the surrounding areas,
and still hoping for a morale effect.

None of this is my interpretation of the events. At this point I
regret two things:
1. Mentioning Warsaw and London in my response which was really only
to discuss the Rotterdam bombings.
2. The posting of the quick internet findings to illustrate that there
many different interpretations and articles which contradict
themselves not only on the Web but also on paper. It was not in any
way supposed to represent an attempt by me to portray the facts.

On the web exists a body of fiction from the "Hitler was the good
guy" crowd. Simply claiming to repeat text found implies a major
lack of thought, are you responsible for the text you post, did you
search for it and make a choice selection? Someone who can quote
from several different books on WWII about the Polish campaign,
including day to day Luftwaffe operations, should be able to spot the
problems with an article that claims only 5 tons of bombs were
dropped in the raids for a start. You decided to include that text, no
one else.

You decided to drop in claims of a Polish atrocity, no one else.

You decided to quote David Irving as a source when anyone basically
familiar with WWII knows him to be unreliable, no one else.

Either take responsibility for the text you post or stop posting. Above
all explain the contradiction between your day to day knowledge of
Luftwaffe operations and a willingness to post text that is clearly
wrong, based on that day to day knowledge.

Changing 600 tonnes of bombs to 5 tons is not reinterpretation.
Using David Irving as a source indicates a preference for fiction.
See Lying about Hitler (or Telling lies for Hitler) by Richard Evans,
who was a historian for the defence when David Irving sued for libel
and lost very badly.

Geoffrey Sinclair
Remove the nb for email.