On Jul 27, 2:01*am, Bruce wrote:
OK - I have a similar serial number Std Cirrus.

Quite a lot less time in it than Tim though.

My experience is - use both aileron and rudder.
With a tail wheel it helps to keep the tail down for the first part of
the run (stick aft of neutral - but no need to hold hard back) that way
the glider tracks much straighter.
In the initial part of the run the ailerons are very ineffectual and
large deflections can stall them.

So - I would agree with prior advice in general. What works for me is to
use rudder and aileron in inverse proportion as the speed increases. By
the time you are at flying speed you should be flying co-ordinated.
At very low speed you will be wanting to use rudder a lot more than
ailerons.

Using the airbrakes on the initial part of the run means the ailerons
are effective far earlier as they divert airflow over the top of the
aileron. Don't try to put them away too close to flying speed - you
might find yourself with a balloon and PIO.

Particularly for winch launching it is a poor idea to use full forward
elevator on a full flying elevator Cirrus on the initial run. You run
the risk of stalling the elevator. Particularly if the pilot is light
and / or the CG is aft. Also any contol held at the stop limits the
available actions (you can only move it one way...)

My Cirrus has the CG very far aft, and is perfectly controllable with
the stick 60-70% forward on a winch launch. On aerotow I hold some aft
pressure till I feel the controls bite then smoothly forward till the
tail comes up. The last thing you want is to be attached to a CG tow
hook pivoting around the main wheel at low speed with big control
deflections.

As Tim said rudder inputs should be a brief deflection to pick a wing up
then back to whatever was tracking you straight - this may be quite a
large deflection in the case of a strong cross wind.

Bruce

On 2010/07/27 7:02 AM, Tim Taylor wrote:



On Jul 26, 8:18 pm, *wrote:
On Jul 26, 9:49 pm, Tim *wrote:

On Jul 26, 7:29 pm, *wrote:

Hi all, new forum member, new transition glider pilot as of this
spring.

I just got a checkout and have done two flights in a 1970 Standard
Cirrus that our club owns. *(This Cirrus model has the full flying
elevator s/n 70 I think)

I read as much as I could find on the web, thought long and hard then
went for it. *Things went well the first tow. *The second tow, my
right wing touched briefly on the initial roll. *First time this has
happened to me. *I got it up quickly and there was no yawing, so I
continued the flight uneventfully.

So, I have a question for any experienced Cirrus pilots. *I've been
told that one needs both rudder and aileron combined to get a low wing
up during initial roll on aerotow. *Furthermore the POH says not to
use aileron on takeoff! *I don't understand either of these things.. *I
can understand both rudder and aileron for the first three seconds or
so if one has no wing runner, *but it seems like I should just use
rudder to keep the nose straight and aileron to keep the wings level
in general. *Especially after my speed is 15kts or more. *This has
always worked in a Grob 103 and an ASK21 of which I have the bulk of
my hours.

... akiley

First some questions

1. Does this glider have the spoiler mod completed?

No. *Full spoiler handle back lets air under spoiler.

2, What type of tail wheel skid does it have?

Small yellow hard rubber wheel like a rollerblade wheel perturding
from the black skid.

3. If it is the rubber tail skid with wheel, what type of wheel does
it have? Plastic or rubber? *Rubber I believe.
4. Have you pushed the glider over a very flat runway or tie-down and
checked that it tracks true and not left or right significantly?

No, but after aligning it very accurately with tow plane just prior to
each tow, it seems to track true.

Basic answers are with the Std. Cirrus you are going to use BOTH
ailerons and rudder. *The ailerons quickly to counter act any drop and
the rudder to pick up the wing if it is dropping. *The POH is 40 years
old and we have learned much since those were written.

Don't you get a big yaw when using the rudder, then have to deal with
loosing position behind the tow?

Related question: is it mostly the initial roll, before you get
aileron authority that requires rudder?

Depending wind conditions and if your glider is straight (no tacking
to one side) I would recommend:

1. Light winds or winds straight down the runway. *Stick full forward
and use both ailerons and rudder until the glider is stable on tow.

Won't full stick forward increase the change of a PIO? *I'm currently
using about 3/4th stick forward in light wind conditions.

If you have enough time in gliders opening the spoilers will help.
Full open if you have the spoiler mod, half open if you do not.

2. Cross winds. *Stick full back on the start of roll to plant the
tail until you get rudder authority, then go stick full forward to
bring the tail up.

I'm avoiding cross winds for now, but this makes sense. *I would worry
about timing so that a POI didn't develop.

If your glider does not track true and has the rubber tail wheel
assembly take it off and reattach it so that the glider rolls
straight. *If you still have a plastic tail wheel get a good rubber
one and replace it (William's Soaring sells a good one), roller blade
wheels will work but not as well.

Thanks for the help. *... akiley

Tim
(500 hours in Std Cirrus)
(800 hours in Nimbus 2M)

1. Don't you get a big yaw when using the rudder, then have to deal
with
loosing position behind the tow?

You would if you leave the rudder in too long. *I teach new pilots to
think of it as boxing. *Most of the inputs are jabs, in for a fraction
of second and out again. *The goal is to keep the glider balanced.
Think of it as trying to balance on top of a ball.

2. Related question: is it mostly the initial roll, before you get
* aileron authority that requires rudder?

The rudder is in and out to keep directional stability and to pick up
a wing if it gets to low. *The Std Cirrus has a CG hook, you can't let
it turn much or it will want to break to one side.

3. Won't full stick forward increase the chance of a PIO? *I'm
currently
using about 3/4th stick forward in light wind conditions.

No, the full stick is just to raise the tail, once it is up you will
be about neutral stick with slight back pressure to rotate. *The PIO
in all flying tails comes if you are not steady at that point.

4. I'm avoiding cross winds for now, but this makes sense. *I would
worry
about timing so that a POI didn't develop.

Again the PIO only comes once you are in the air and if you are not
gentle on the controls. Often it is best to rest your arm on your lap
to minimize the motion in your hand.

--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: ---

A little follow up for clarification. I can't figure out what's more
important, staying behind the tow plane or trying to level the wings
with rudder during the initial roll. (assuming ailerons are mostly
useless at this slow speed) It seems, at least on the initial roll,
that you can't always have it both ways. Say the left wing starts to
drop, but you are also starting to get to the right of the tow plane.
At this point it seems you have a choice of wing up with rudder, or
let the wing be and use rudder to work your way gradually back behind
the tow plane hoping your ailerons starts to become effective soon.
Or can a rudder jabbing action sort of lift a wing without aggravating
a yaw in the already wrong direction?

Unless a "dropped wing" is defined as a wing that actually hits the
ground, causing a definitive yaw away from the tow. In this case
rudder input to lift the wing gets the wing up AND re-positions the
glider behind the tow, same technique one might use to initiate
aerotow without a wing runner.

Wuddiyathynk? ...akiley