On Nov 7, 9:42*am, John Cochrane
wrote:
On Nov 7, 10:13*am, bildan wrote:

Turning away from soaring because of how the glider looks just doesn't
seem valid to me, but that's just me.
This discussion should be about the thousands, perhaps tens of
thousands, who didn't become glider pilots because they were put off
by unattractive gliders, trashy operations etc...

Yesterday I gave 6 young people their first rides in an ASK-21 - they
all wanted more. *However, at lunch break, I couldn't help noticing
the picnic table was 6 feet from an overflowing garbage can. *We can
do better.

There is a tendency around soaring to mistake what we want, and what
we think people should want, with what they actually do want.
The world has changed. People have more money, less time, and higher
expectations. And many more choices. We can tell them they should want
something different, but they vote with their feet.

The real question should be, what about self launch. My ideal trainer
is the ASK21 with motor. It's much more economical on time, the thing
we are all short of. Alas our airport is too short.

John Cochrane

I think that as an ab-initio trainer (up until you work on XC) the
ASK-21 is hard to beat, like all round really hard to beat. But as an
an owner of a beautiful ASH-26E self-launch glider I'd be careful
about thinking of an ASK-21Mi as a club/FBO instructional glider. And
I'm not sure exactly is meant by using a self-launch glider for
instruction... For primary instruction I'm very dubious and for XC/
advanced stuff you really want something with more legs than the
ASK-21 (and remember the ASK-21Mi is effectively fully ballasted with
water you cannot dump), and even then I think new XC pilots are better
off in a conventional glider (and landing out a few times...).

The motors in typical retracting mast motoglider are just not anywhere
near the same durability as you'll find in a typical C150 or Pawnee or
other towplane. Many of these gliders with engines with 100 hours on
them would be considered "high time". Tasking these specialized
gliders and using them for high-duty trainers would be the last thing
I would want to do for many reasons. A taste....

- Slight cross winds especially quartering tailwinds will give you
handling problem that you'd never expedience with a tow plane to
follow.

- You'll need an intercom for safe communications and reducing the
potential of hearing damage - another hassle to deal with.

- Mast retraction and engine cooldown proceedures are additional
workload for many motorgliders and will cramp some high cycle training
flights.

- I'd also have concerns about climb performance of a two-seater with
two "American weight" folks on board especially at high density
altitudes.

- For folks at the higher end of that "American normal" weight you are
going to run up against W&B limits.

- Incorrect cooldown, or forgetting to check the oil (or forgetting to
secure the oil cap after that check) or forgetting to adding the oil
premix (for the two stroke engines) to the fuel and you might be
answering the other question about what a new engine or rebuild costs
(want a guess... $10k-$30k depending on type and how much damage and
what ancillary systems also need replacing). Clubs/FBOS have to
maintain towplanes and they are more complex than conventional gliders
but they get exposed a lot less to students and others making
mistakes.

- Motorgliders also tend to be maintenance fussy, require some
detailed knowledge, good access to other experienced owners and the
factory and occasionally special tools, engine test/run stands etc.
There are very few service centers in the USA who can work on typical
motorgliders (that I'd trust) -- and often engine rebuilds are needed
to/best done at the engine factory.

---

None of this is specific to Schleicher - other self launchers,
especially retracting mast ones, will have may similar and likely
other operations issues -- including electrics, jets etc. A good old
towplane with relatively understandable ownership costs and utility
would be my first choice. I'd also not be rushing to do primary glider
training in a touring motorglider (unless that pilot was dead set on
buying and flying that type. Us of winches to lower costs are a
separate topic. Oh and add in commercial operators need a certified
two seat motorglider which for them will thin the field a bit. Current
insurance under the SSA plan for a private motorglider owner is pretty
easy to get but as a policy owner who will be affected by rising
prices, I really hope underwriters would look at what I expect are
increased risks involved in doing primary glider instruction
especially in a retracting mast glider.

The ASK-21Mi on the other hand should be an excellent trainer platform
(with dual seat engine controls) for self launch endorsements, self-
launch proficiency training etc. But that is a pretty small market.
Its a worry that many of us who needed self-launch endorsements end up
doing them in touring motorgliders which have significant different
operation, handling and saftey issues.

Now I'm sure there will be some folks out there that we'll hear from
here that are doing instruction in an ASK-21Mi or similar today, I
could see it might sense more for very small clubs with memberships
with high equity ownership and high amounts of supervision, especially
if members want to move up to other motorgliders but in general I
think a bad idea.

Darryl