Guy Alcala wrote:

I'm unaware of that being the case. I think I can tell the difference between political humbug
and true belief. I have no doubt about, say, the sincerity of Senator Lieberman's beliefs, nor
do I (generally) doubt the sincerity of President Bush's. But when they start making a big
public deal out of it and mentioning God at every (politically) opportune moment, it starts to
smell.

Well if you're at a convention of xylophonists, you tend to talk
about xylophones, so I don't think it's terribly smelly to have
Bush talk religion at a religious convention (I believe that was
the context of his "God's delivery boy" statement).

Yet at least around here, there seems to be a belief he's promoting
born-again christianity, and the division between church and state
is being narrowed.

How do you figure that? You can decorate your house, you car, or yourself with Crosses, Stars of
David, Crescents, Ankhs, Prayer wheels or Pentagrams all you want. You can spend every waking
minute of every day praising your god(s) as much as you chose. Just don't try and force me to
agree with you, and don't try to force me to listen to you in a public building/space that I'm
constrained to be in. You want to stand on your soapbox in the park and tell everyone _who wants
to listen_ about the wonders of your religion, knock yourself out. But don't do it at the top of
your lungs to people who have no interest in what you're saying, and who can't move out of
earshot while still enjoying the location.

"Public space" is supposed to be for the public. You can't get a
more "public space" in New England than a town common. In Amherst,
the town common is the location for all sorts of stuff people put
up to display.

Try and put up a nativity scene there. You can't. "Separation of
church and state" ya know. But the UMass pagans can put up their
wooden whatever commemorating various spirits of "Mother Earth".

Christians should be able to put up their nativity scene. Jews
should be able to (and somehow do) put up their menorah or star of
David, Islam...

Placing these symbols in town space is NOT promoting religion.
It's allowing public expression. It's not "forcing" views on people
any more than having a flag waving on a flag pole (which I might add,
have also been objected to).

No, it's saying that government can not favor one religion over another, nor can they sponsor one
or many. You want a nativity scene, feel free to pay for it (or get like-minded individiuals to
do so) and put it up on your lawn. Which is pretty much what happens around here. You want to
have a stone sculpture monument of the Ten Commandments? Be my guest, and mount it in your yard,
home or (in some cases) business. But it doesn't belong in the Courthouse.

It most certainly can belong on the courthouse lawn, if that is a
convenient public place. Religion is a part of national life. It
should not be excluded from the courthouse any more than "In God
we Trust" removed from coinage. It's a cultural expression as well
as religious.

Separation of church and state simply means you can not say OK to
the nativity scene while excluding a Menorah during Chanukha.

Some were deeply religious, some went through the motions because it was expected, some were
agnostic or atheist. You'd be pretty hard-pressed to describe Benjamin Franklin as "deeply
religious." The important thing is that they all had the legal right to be of whatever religion

Actually, I'd call Ben and Thomas Jefferson quite religious
individuals, just not in an "organized" way.

[I like the "Jefferson Bible" where he went through the King
James cutting out passages that he liked, pasting them all
together to form his own "bible". I've only just started the
Ben Franklin bio, so I'm not up to speed on details of his
religious thinking beyond general knowledge that he was not
atheist.]

He has pandered to his religious base quite a lot, in the last election and now this one.
Sometimes he's sincere, but in some cases he's throwing them a bone after making a political
calculation. The hesitation about coming out and saying he'd support a constitutional amendment
banning gay marriage being a case in point. The decision itself, and the timing of it, was a
political calculation through and through.

I don't think that's entirely the case. Bush is President so
there is going to be political context in whatever he does or says.
"Calculation" for me implies a sort of insincerity that may not
always be the case. Virtually any political action can be labeled
"calculating" I suppose.

Fundamentalist, and sometimes non-fundamentalist Christians such
as myself, don't particularly like the idea of gay marriage.
I live in the People's Republic of Massachusetts, so my right
wing thinking on this has been moderated into a willingness to
accept "civil union" for gays...or polygamists...or almost whatever.

Whether you believe an amendment to obtain "correct" constitutional
interpretation of the issue on the part of judges, or some other
way, may or may not be a pandering to a political group.

I personally don't like adding constitutional amendments whenever
a new "interpretation" of something comes up, but, what else can
you do besides be careful about the judges you appoint?

And fortunately the Supreme Court has just found against the guy who sued the state of Washington
(IIRR), because they refused to pay the scholarship they had awarded him when he wanted to use it
to attend theology school. He seemed like a decent sort, but I certainly don't want my taxes to
pay to support his particular faith (or any other). If his denomination needs ministers and he
can't afford it himself, they can pay his way if they choose, but it shouldn't be coming out of
my pocket.

I'm torn on this example. I don't want government funding the
development of religious "professionals". Yet education is a
primary and just use of government funds, and discrimination on
the type of professional perhaps isn't warranted. Biology,
electrical engineering, Italian Renaissance art, theology?
Perhaps shouldn't rally matter.

Producing an actual minister? A bit shaky, but as long as
the government isn't promoting the production of only Episcopal
ministers, perhaps not entirely wrong.

For a slightly more benign example (IMO), I have no problem
with public vouchers for Catholic schools of choice, as long
as students who wish can opt out of any of the religious
components of such education. This is not be promoting
religion. It's promoting education!


SMH