On Monday, 25 February 2013 17:22:39 UTC, wrote:
On Monday, February 25, 2013 9:50:52 AM UTC-6, Dan Marotta wrote:

"son_of_flubber" wrote in message



...



On Sunday, February 24, 2013 5:06:33 PM UTC-5, wrote:







snip ...Why not equip gliders (with a turn and bank indicator) and pilots



(with training) to safely handle a few minutes of cloud flying if it is a



non-zero possibility?











That's a pretty naive question. The average VFR pilot has "178 seconds to



live" after an inadvertent trip into IMC, according to the Air Safety



Foundation. So what training do you think would equip the average VFR pilot



to "safely handle a few minutes of cloud flying"?







My Air Force pilot training lasted over a year but produced a competent



instrument pilot. In service, I used to practice partial panel (needle and



ball) recoveries from unusual attitudes in a two-seater. I was *very good*



on instruments.







Still, with a TruTrac in my panel, I don't feel at all safe to venture into



IMC in my glider since I haven't flown IFR in about 10 years. It's a



perishable skill.







While at FL290 on my Diamond climb, I noticed the clouds beginning to close



below me. I opened the dive brakes on the L-23 and flew downwind to the



sink and performed an emergency descent. Maintaining sutuational awareness



will keep you out of the clouds in all but the rarest of circumstances.



Good judgement will keep you from getting into situations that require



superior skill. (BTW, I got the diamond and completed the badge on that



flight.)







Dan, 5J



Thanks Dan, naive is the word for many of the above posts. Flying into clouds with little or now training is suicidal. The glider will break up and you'll hope the parachute packer is your friend. The false reliance on the an AI or turn-and-bank may keep you from going through the last hole in the undercast until it's too late.

A friend of mine back in Germany told me this story 30 years ago: he decided to "try" cloudflying in his wooden ship one day, using a turn indicator.. After the 3 min or that Dan's mentioned, things went wrong. Speed went up and down, he was tossed around in the cockpit and had lost control. When he was falling out of the cloud, he looked down to see the ground but found the ground "above" him. He was not aware of his upside-down orientation.. His old but sturdy glider never went past vne so he lived to tell the story.



Herb

While I don't suggest cloud flying is to be taken lightly, most people who do it in the countries where it is permitted seem to survive (with their gliders intact and their parachutes unused). Here it is permitted, and there is no formal qualification or training scheme - though there will be soon, for which the syllabus is yet to be determined. It is not a significant cause of accidents in the UK (I cannot recall reading of such an accident in the accident reports).

Most gliders at our club are equipped with artificial horizons - I have the AH module for my LX9000. Dynon units are very popular (I have never heard of anyone trusting a mobile phone app). Many types of glider level the wings and maintain a stable speed if you open the airbrakes from a spiral dive - so the 'get out of jail' plan if the instrument fails or you lose control is to let go of the stick and open the brakes while the speed is still quite low and you are trimmed appropriately. You had better be sure that cloudbase is well above the highest ground anywhere near!

Since I hold an 'IMC endorsement' for my PPL, I get tested on partial panel recovery from unusual attitudes every 2 years in a Cessna or Piper. However, this is in a draggy 'spam can' - a slippery glider is a different kettle of fish, putting on speed much more quickly in a nose down attitude. Personally, I would not expect to be able to cloud fly a glider without an artificial horizon, though there are many pilots who can and do.

Mark, from London Gliding Club, Dunstable, UK