On Friday, March 7, 2014 9:24:21 AM UTC-6, John Carlyle wrote:
But what about case three? Some in this thread have said it's possible, and that one needs ground reference training to become familiar with the reverse wing tip movement sensation so you don't try to "correct it". Maybe, but I'd argue no. First, you're going to have to quit doing something very important (maintaining a coordinated turn while low) to focus on something secondary in order to realize what's happening. Next you're going to have to "do something" impulsively without cross-checking with a quick gaze at your yaw string that something really needs to be done to maintain your coordinated turn. If you're the sort that would be susceptible to these actions, I'd suggest there's training in other areas that needs to be accomplished first before you consider ground reference training.

I don't understand why the motion of the wingtip over the ground is such a big deal? Who looks (focuses) at their wingtip in flight? I'm looking way beyond it at some other object - who cares what my wingtip is doing? In a steady turn, once established, it would take a lot of rudder to significantly move the nose and create dangerous yaw - who boots the rudder while in a steady turn? I think there is something more basic going on here - poor/lazy airmanship! Get out and fly more; practice stalls/departures/spiral dive recoveries, be aggressive in your pattern - fly down to the flare (fast, steep, in control), instead of being scared to get close to the ground, etc....

Now, let me follow your topic drift. Suppose it takes 5-10 seconds without outside orientation references for vertigo to set in. Why wouldn't all the passengers in the center section of a widebody at night get nauseous? If your answer is "they use the cabin as an orientation reference for their inner ear", then why can't the pilot use his cockpit features for the same purpose? He'll probably still lose control of the aircraft, but he shouldn't become nauseous.

Because the airliner is always in coordinated flight and the turn/roll rates as very slow. Trust me, every passenger in an airliner doing turns in clouds or at night has vertigo, but since they are unaware of it, unless they are looking out the window when they pop out of a cloud in a turn they will not become aware of it or get nausious. Next time you fly commercial, focus your gaze forward down the cabin during the takeoff acceleration, and you will sense the plane pitching up significantly BEFORE rotation (acceleration effect on inner ear - vertigo), then look out the window and note how fast your equilibrium reestablishes. This really was fun in something like a C-130 or C-141 with no windows and good acceleration, it felt like you pitched up 10 degrees immediately!

Kirk
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