B2431 wrote:
From: Kerryn Offord


SNIP

This should be qualified.

The culture clash is only over hand guns and using firearms for self
defence (as a first line over and above getting out of there).



Why should one be forced into "getting out of" his residence? If you do that
you have lost whatever edge you may have over the intruder. If the intruder
intends harm he will follow you outside.

***
I was talking about the attitude that grabbing a gun is the first
thought, over and above the simple idea of 'getting out of there'.

Where 'getting out of there' means getting out of whatever room the
intruder is in (no need to leave the house, but you can.

Avoiding a confrontation is the safest thing for most people. Your
attitude seems to be.. "there is an intruder, let's go and kill the
SOB". Me, I like to think my first thought, assuming there is nobody
I'll be leaving in danger, is to get out of there and call the police.
Personally, even if I had a gun (well I do, but its safely secured),
will I be able to shoot someone? Rather than confront someone only to
find I can't react swiftly enough, I'll try and avoid confrontation.



Let's say you have 2 children each in his own room, do you retreat alone, take
the time to grab one or both? In the time it takes to wake one child and
convince him he has to leave his home the badguy is on top of you.

***
Having others in the house means you have already reached the limit of
retreat. You can't avoid a confrontation, so make your best move. Just
don't use a hand gun, and that shotgun had better have been secured
before you grabbed it. Think of how the jury would see it.. "I was
defending my children." is a hard one to beat... just try to do it
legally (no illegal weapons kept ready for self defence)... a cricket
bat is a great weapon (a recent case: A man heard his daughter scream.
He grabbed a cricket bat and slammed it into the person standing in the
dark over his daughter's bed.... He was defending his family.. the
police didn't even think of charging him.)


OK, once you get outside then what? If the intruder follows you and is capable
of harming you he will still do so. Fight back once you are outside? With what?
At least you could get to the kitchen and grab a knife inside the home. What
if the resident is unable to defend himself or herself for whatever reason?

***
First off.. you don't have to get outside, just out of the room the
intruder is in.. If he/she follows... well, you tried to avoid
confrontation....

But anyway... there are neighbours... they are usually willing to
answer the door when someone knocks on it (the won't even shoot you as
you walk up the front path)...

If the resident is unable to defend themselves for some reason, why
would they want to confront the intruder?

And, you want to attack someone using a kitchen knife? No thanks... to
much chance of getting hurt (I have a 'stick').

There is no reason you can't grab a weapon as you withdraw from
confrontation... just that it shouldn't be a hand gun (of course the
only handgun/intruder shooting resulted in the death of the intruder (he
was armed with a VHS cassette) and not much happened to the householder
(in spite of all the laws he broke using a handgun.) If someone
follows.. well, you tried to avoid confrontation...


Let me ask you a question. Is the life of a criminal more important than yours?
OK, you let the badguy in, what then? You now have NO defense. What if the
badguy decides to rape you, your wife or child? What if he wants to beat a
family member? Don't tell me the family member will get over it, I have seen
life long physical and emotional injuries. Don't think that's bad enough? He's
in a position to kill all of you to eliminate witnesses. Why allow the badguy
to make the dicision to harm you?

***
You are assuming that if there is an intruder it is a case of his life
or mine... that might be how it is in the USA, its not what its like in
NZ. There are very few intruder crimes in NZ (most burglaries are when
the house is unoccupied. Most intruders, as soon as they realize someone
is up and about will do a runner.

There is no need to let an intruder into your house. You can defend the
door. You can probably even get away with threatening to shoot someone
to keep them out. I'm assuming the person has gained entry to the
house... in that case, you want to think about getting out of there (if
discovery doesn't cause them to do a runner)...



You can't shoot to maim or wound because he can sue and probably win. You
really can't wait until his intentions are clear. If you can get him to stop
his attack without shooting do so, if not shoot.

***
In NZ, if I shoot someone other than when they are running away, (or
even walking away).. i.e., they are potentially a threat, I can shoot
them and they cannot sue me.... as long as a jury considers it
reasonable force.


In Florida the magic number is 21 feet. If the badguy has started his attack
and you shoot him dead he is likely to complete his actions up to 21 feet. You
may have a house with 21 foot rooms, most of us don't. The decision to shoot
has to be made in an instant.

***
Biggest "room" (open plan dining/lounge) is about 30' long, Everything
else will be less than 21'.

This assumes you have a firearm to hand. Do you always carry a loaded
firearm around your house? Me? I don't. If someone is in the house I'm
going to make a noise and if that doesn't scare them away, I'll find
something I can swing (stick, rolled up magazine or newspaper)...
meanwhile I'll be calling the Police. Personally I just wouldn't think
of using a gun.


In case you are wondering it breaks my heart when accidents happen such as
shooting one's own family member. Personally I want every citizen taught basic
firearms safety even if they are opposed to owning guns. They can use fake
guns. At the very least every child should be taught what to do if they find a
firearm. The NRA's Eddie Eagle program does just that.


***
The thing is, care to guess how many incidents there are in NZ where a
house holder accidentally shoots a member of their household? I think
the same number applies to UK, and probably even Australia.

As I said, its a matter of attitude. In NZ and probably UK and Oz.
Firearms are not the first response to an intruder.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired