On 3 May 2004 13:17:46 -0700, (robert arndt) wrote:

You Abrams fanboys really need to look beyond 30yr old obsolete Iraqi junk
that hasn't been serviced since 1991 for your comparisons.

True. It would be amazing to see a Leopard 2A6 face off against the
current M-1A2 upgrade. Of course the new German L55 main gun with DM
53 ammo would pick it right off IMO.

Of course, you'd be wrong. The M-1 doesn't need the longer gun
because it's got much better ammo available to it than the DM53
(M829E3) not to much the much better armor of the M-1A2.


And you might look to what is actually IN service for your
comparisons. Face it. Russian tanks are junk.

Not so. Both the Ukraine and Russia are working on newer, deadlier
MBTs that have weapon systems and defensives aids that have no Western
equivalent like dazzlers, Arena defense system, active armor,
anti-helo missiles, 152mm main gun that can also fire ATGWs, higher-hp
gas turbines,etc... but still keeping the weight down to 45-50 tons,
crew of 3, autoloader. Check out their T-80UM-2, Ukrainian T-84
upgrades, T-95, and Black Eagle.


Whoopie. Which part of "working on" equates to "in service"? The US
is working on EM guns, laser self-defenses etc. And those tanks you
mention are the ones that suck according to the paper that ranked the
Leopard II A6 number 1. Black Eagle and T-84 were specifically
mentioned.



They definately have the technology
but lack funding. Besides, try fighting Russia on their territory with
the M-1. I don't care if the people had Molotov cocktails alone- they
would beat US the same way they beat Germany.

Well, you keep living in your fantasy world.




An elephant can kill
thousands of tiny ants with its bulk but eventually the ants will
swarm over the elephant and strip it alive.


Fortunately we're not talking about elephants and ants but tanks.



So far the M-1 is good at
attacking puny Third World nations with rusting import FSU MBT's
manned by conscript soldiers that live like animals. Some
comparison...

Some comparison. . . .?? And??


The same report that got this thread started had the T-80 and T-90 as
WAY down the list. IIRC it went something like

Leopard II A6
M1A2
Merkava IV
Challanger II
South Korean Type 88 K1A1 "mini M-1"
Japanese Type 90

*then* the two Russian (or Russian/Ukraine) tanks. Come to think of
it, even the LeClerc might be ahead of them.


(BTW is someone has a link to that report I'd appreciate it. I can't
seem to find it)

No, the order was:

Leopard 2A6EX
M1A2
Type 90
Merkava 4
Challenger 2
LeClerc

From Forecast Internation report 2002/3.

Rob


So where do your vaunted Russian tanks fall? That Type 90 they're
talking about is the JAPANESE tank. I'm willing to be proved wrong
though. Just send me the link to that report if you would.