Arrrgh. Too Late? Its never too late ;-)!

The point is the handicap range should be as narrow as possible, not as wide as possible. Not many clubs are putting ASK21's on the road to go to contests. Club Class exists in the US becuase a group of Club Owners wanted their own class, and they wanted that Class to be the International Club Class as much as possible (even FAI rules for many.......).

The state of the art standard boys are more than welcomed, and should only want to be in Modern Class or 15m Class (soon?). That is what modern class is for! Modern gliders, no?

Why would someone with a D2 want to race a Libelle (not an ASW27,Duo Discus or a Ventus 2) and then assure themselves of racing big turn area tasks every day?

Why allow, encourage or promote that kind of unfair and unnecessary handicap range within a class that clear does not want it when 2 other choices are available to them?

I just do not get how so many smart people see this so differently than I. Why is it so important to the powers that be to include these guys in not only Modern and 15m but Club Class? It makes no sense to me. But I am not alone. Most of the guys on my side of this argument already own Club Class ships and want better competition.

I would vote to not include them. Ill leave it there.


On Thursday, July 17, 2014 2:41:07 PM UTC-4, wrote:
Sean -



Too late - standard class are already within the club class handicap range and no when dry they dont go any better than a ASW20. (flaps you understand)



The IGC club class list is driven by what is representative of club equipment largely in Germany.



I know many German clubs that have multiple LS8s, and D2s as well as LS4's in their fleet (hell one club I know has a ASG29!!) Its only a matter of time before the *official* IGC list adopts these gliders into the list. The list by definition will change with time as older higher performance gliders filter down into the general european club population.



Lower performance club class ships are preferred in many instances because of the option of using following tactics on the higher handicap gliders and then do well on handicap. Beyond a certain handicap difference this becomes unsustainable. (good - go fly your own flight).



Club class is patently NOT about the mano-et-mano one class no handicap racing you so love. It is all about providing the best compromise of racing in a range of handicaps that are affordable relative to the cost of new production gliders. Emphasis on compromise. Its the inherent difficulty with club class but without it you do NOT HAVE a club class.



Club class specifically excludes 126's and gliders that have such a wide handicap difference that they preclude any sense of racing or fair tasking - to some, that range is too high as it is - even though it is significantly smaller than the current Sports Class range. A wider handicap range in club is inevitable by design - we might argue about what the range is or should be but we only have the IGC handicap range to go on as a guide. Again - compromise.



The handicap rating system has been developed over many years by good knowledgable people and it has a well understood basis of development. It can be improved certainly but changing handicaps (up or down) requires real data not opinions to support this. Many people may have perceptions about the supposed accuracy or otherwise of a particular gliders handicap - few of them can back that up with direct personal experience that also survives rational inspection.



Lastly - If US Club class was really a *US* club class everyone would be flying 1-26,s, G103's, G102's, K21's, K23's and the like - thats all that would fit the *club equipment* list since thats pretty much what our small fractured club culture runs and owns.



As it is, the only real direction we can take in emulating the IGC club class in the USA is the handicap range of the IGC list since we have no similar Club infrastructure. So think of Club class as an attempt to emulate the European Club ship contest environment with a similar range of handicaps in lower cost private owned gliders.



Yes - Modern Standard is low cost - less than half the price of a ASG29.



2T





On Thursday, July 17, 2014 10:47:25 AM UTC-7, Sean Fidler wrote:

I disagree that these super standard gliders should be allowed to race in (US) Club Class.







First, the idea of the ASW20 being of higher performance than an ASW28, D2 or LS8 seems rather questionable to me. An LS8 won a day at Uvalde recently. That was head to head with the state of the air flapped 15m gliders without any handicap. I highly doubt that an ASW-20 could have won a competition day in Uvalde. Uvalde soaring conditions are as close as we are ever going to get to laboratory sailplane racing conditions. The 28, LS8 and D2 are vastly under-handicapped gliders in my opinion. Especially if an ASW 20 owes them time. Seriously? There should be riots happening somewhere until this is fixed. ;-) and this is why handicaps stink and why utilizing the absolute narrowest possible handicap range is so important.







These gliders (20, 8 and 28) are very modern designs. They absolutely do not belong in a any class with the word Club in its title. Its awful that the standard class is dying, but that does not mean they should be sprinkled into as many other classes as possible. That it a bad idea in my opinion.







The whole point of the US group that pushed (for years and years) for a US Club class was to create a class which mimic's the International Club class as much as possible. They wanted real racing! They wanted assigned tasking. They wanted to have fun and select the best US pilots for the World Championships.







Perhaps we should stop "kidding ourselves "by including the words Club in what is clearly "US Catch All Class" which ranges currently ranges from 126 to D2? The "US Catch All Class" has no hope of having assigned tasks and has almost nothing in common with the international Club Class whatsoever. We are all going to going to continue to endure alot of irritation if the word Club is left in the name of this Class. It is a false word when compared with the current US Club Class specifications. Lets strip out the word Club and call a spade a spade OR lets refocus to what Club Class represent to the group that made the US Club Class a class by begging, kicking and screaming for years.







A D2 racing a task against a Libelle? Seriously? Whats the point?







In my opinion the D2, 28 and LS8 belong in only 2 classes. US Modern Class (which actually benefits more from creation of the US Club Class (US Catch All Class) than US Club Class does in terms of providing real racing by removing the very low handicap gliders) and 15 Meter Class with perhaps a small handicap.











Sean















On Wednesday, July 16, 2014 3:10:24 PM UTC-4, John Cochrane wrote:



Standard could pool both with club and 15 meter. Modern standard will be part of club. The only real issue is whether standard gets a handicap in 15 meter, and along with that whether older 15 get one too. Maybe a lower limit for handicapping as was done in standard. Then you can fly your d2 in sports, club, or 15!







John cochrane