On Thursday, July 17, 2014 6:33:14 PM UTC-5, son_of_flubber wrote:

Sure, a landout for me at this stage grows more inevitable with every flight. But novices make a very conservative estimation of final glide to pattern altitude, they only fly upwind of the airport, they stay above 'the funnel' etc..

Sure they do - right up to the day they don't and end up in a field ;^)

It's kinda like skiing - how long do you stay on the bunny slope? And when you move to the more challenging trails, do you ever fall down? Landing out (and not necessarily in a field - any un-planned landing really counts and with a good glide computer an airfield can usually be kept in range) is the soaring equivalent of falling down - if you don't do it you are not pushing yourself!

Unless, of course, you are (as Pez would describe) a twirlybird - but I don't get that impression!

What you are saying is that our (USA) training system does not put enough emphasis on a basic skill in flying gliders - the technique for picking a suitable landout field and accomplishing a safe pattern, landing, and recovery of the glider to the home field.



I'm not saying that at all. Maybe that's true on average, but I've trained extensively with some of the best CFIs in the USA. Several are active or former XC pilots. I understand the theory very well and I habitually evaluate landout fields from the air and the ground.

Great!


But I've also done an hour of simulated landout training in a LSA with a CFI who has done many landouts. I learned that that kind of training is invaluable. The experience started to integrate the book learning and discussion into concrete flying ability. Several people suggest that I should do that integration on-the-fly on my own in a field some day. That's what they did. Good luck pal!

Even better - you sound more prepared than most XC pilots I know!


I've read Tom Knauff's opinion that many active XC pilots are unprepared to land out and over-confident in their ability to land out. I've read Tom's opinion that simulated landout training in a motorglider is very cost-effective training and that people make huge gains in their ability to select good fields and properly set up patterns with just a few hours of practice, and that simulated landout training justifiably increases confidence and reduces mistake-inducing land out stress.

Totally agree...and would add that even Condor has a lot to add to training for landouts - our local scenery even has a designated landout field in it..


I've spoken with a top shelf CFI from the UK who emphatically states "training to land out in a motor glider is the ONLY sensible approach". The CFIs who have access to motorgliders probably agree with that, and those who don't have access to motorgliders naturally say that "simulated landout training is good" but not necessary.

Unfortunately, in the US two-place motorgliders are rare - but lightplanes are not. A low and slow flight around the local area checking out potential landout fields is almost as useful - which you have also done...


I've done an hour of simulated landout training in an LSA and based on that experience I'd like to do more in the rather difficult to landout region where I fly. I think that if that sort of training was more generally available and promoted, that it would increase the number of pilots interested in XC.

You sound almost over-prepared. Landing out safely is a process, since you can't know ahead of time where it's going to happen and check out every possible field. Once you have that process nailed - go!

But I also think "fear of landouts" is used as an excuse by many pilots, who simply do not want to venture away from the home field. What percentage of US glider pilots actually fly XC? It's not really about money - 1-26s are cheap and in some ways are great XC gliders (can land anywhere and the retrieves tend to be short).


BTW, I've also done a few hours in a Duo with a top-shelf XC pilot at a world class soaring location. The general thrust of this thread is to make those opportunities more available, and I would certainly like to see that happen. It is something that I would like to do more of in the future, but that level of flying is so far above my level that it hardly seems relevant at that the moment.

I've heard that so many times. "Why doesn't someone with lots of experience take the time to hold my hand and take me XC?". Because those guys are going XC, that's why! It's not that complicated - get a glider, make sure the varios work, put air in the trailer tires, then go! You learn by doing.

Kirk
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