On Thursday, July 17, 2014 7:33:14 PM UTC-4, son_of_flubber wrote:
On Thursday, July 17, 2014 1:26:40 PM UTC-4, kirk.stant wrote:
On Wednesday, July 16, 2014 7:46:50 PM UTC-5, son_of_flubber wrote:

I wonder if the old hands in XC have forgotten how big the issue of safely landing out looms in the mind of the aspiring XC pilot?



Whoa, wait a minute - what does XC have to do with landing out?
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Sure, a landout for me at this stage grows more inevitable with every flight. But novices make a very conservative estimation of final glide to pattern altitude, they only fly upwind of the airport, they stay above 'the funnel' etc..


What you are saying is that our (USA) training system does not put enough emphasis on a basic skill in flying gliders - the technique for picking a suitable landout field and accomplishing a safe pattern, landing, and recovery of the glider to the home field.

I'm not saying that at all. Maybe that's true on average, but I've trained extensively with some of the best CFIs in the USA. Several are active or former XC pilots. I understand the theory very well and I habitually evaluate landout fields from the air and the ground.

But I've also done an hour of simulated landout training in a LSA with a CFI who has done many landouts. I learned that that kind of training is invaluable. The experience started to integrate the book learning and discussion into concrete flying ability. Several people suggest that I should do that integration on-the-fly on my own in a field some day. That's what they did. Good luck pal!

I've read Tom Knauff's opinion that many active XC pilots are unprepared to land out and over-confident in their ability to land out. I've read Tom's opinion that simulated landout training in a motorglider is very cost-effective training and that people make huge gains in their ability to select good fields and properly set up patterns with just a few hours of practice, and that simulated landout training justifiably increases confidence and reduces mistake-inducing land out stress.

I've spoken with a top shelf CFI from the UK who emphatically states "training to land out in a motor glider is the ONLY sensible approach". The CFIs who have access to motorgliders probably agree with that, and those who don't have access to motorgliders naturally say that "simulated landout training is good" but not necessary.

I've done an hour of simulated landout training in an LSA and based on that experience I'd like to do more in the rather difficult to landout region where I fly. I think that if that sort of training was more generally available and promoted, that it would increase the number of pilots interested in XC.

BTW, I've also done a few hours in a Duo with a top-shelf XC pilot at a world class soaring location. The general thrust of this thread is to make those opportunities more available, and I would certainly like to see that happen. It is something that I would like to do more of in the future, but that level of flying is so far above my level that it hardly seems relevant at that the moment.

Great thread and wonderful comments.

One thing I haven't really seen discussed is...... what are the "low time pilots like" before XC?

My example, I started as a young teenager, we have NO FEAR!
My major instructor also did XC & racing (it was Hank Nixon..... maybe you've heard of him?).
Beyond the basic "airmanship" I learned, I was itching to "go somewhere". Once I could get into a 1-26 (my Mom's 1-26, Dianne Black-Nixon), I went where ever I could go.
Again, I was a kid and had no fear.

After I got older (maybe not grown up), I finally became an instructor. By then I had flown a number of different gliders, ABC route through silver & parts of gold/diamond.

I did basic instructing, but also did some XC in a 2-33 if the weather allowed.
Later on, I did mid-level/higher level instructing while others did basic instruction. Hank did the same kind of teaching as I.
So now, we had at least 2 XC backed instructors teaching students through the "Schweitzer route". We started in a 2-33, solo in a 2-33, build time and then onto the 1-26. The goal was a safe airplane that sorta forced you to use a lot of thermals. After some flying time, you could move up more to "more horsepower" meaning a better L/D. But at least you could find & USE thermals.

Every Thanksgiving we went to HHSC for the Snowbird. Part of that "contest" was showing how well you could consistently spotland a glider with good energy control (rules link & discussion in another thread here) compared to others.
Prior to the Snowbird, we would practice at home, more than our "day to day flying".
As an instructor, I (as well as other instructors) made a point of having the student pick a spot on the airport to land on. This was pushing the "how does it look, how does it sound, how does it feel" part of decision making..
As they got better, the students were doing patterns with the altimeter covered and still going for the spot.

This would help ease some of the, "What if I don't make it back?" angst for a potential XC pilot.
We would state, "You can be consistent spot landing here, same as out in the wild".

But there are still some that won't go anywhere. One "older gent" told me he wouldn't go anywhere until he could afford a GPS/flight computer.
I looked at him and stated, "Do you know how many miles I've flown with a ruler & paper map....especially in a 1-26?"

I applaud Hank, Karl and others that have made a seat in a glass 2 seater available for regional contests. It's a great way to help "shove along" some pilots just so they can see what's possible even on "crappy looking days". Hank usually uses a ASK-21, not high on the list of XC gliders, but way better than a 2-33.

Since Valley Soaring is a club, I guess we are a little different than a lot of commercial operations in terms of going XC.
But prior to the club, the Valley Soaring Corp. also promoted XC, again sorta driven by Hank & Dianne.

There are multiple reasons for pilots to not go XC, thus there are multiple ways to get them going (if they will even go.....).
No single method will work 100% of the time, but identifying possible issues and having a plan to work through them is the way to go.

-Training geared towards XC down the road (thermaling, spot landing EVERY FLIGHT)
-Some XC in a low performance 2 place (2-33 is a start)
-Having a path geared towards better performance flying (low performance to better performance, time & ability based)
-"Lead follow" or "mid/high performance 2 place XC" sessions
-Actually ANSWERING questions of pilots thinking about XC

Enough from me, hope it all made sense.