On Friday, February 13, 2015 at 1:43:37 PM UTC-8, wrote:
On Thursday, February 12, 2015 at 12:27:05 PM UTC-6, Darryl Ramm wrote:
Mike Schumann wrote:
On Wednesday, February 11, 2015 at 4:27:24 PM UTC-5, Darryl Ramm wrote:
Bill T wrote:
I believe that the GPS reciever still needs to be WAAS compliant to
provide ADSB out data. The key would be to approve portable ADSB out
devices, currently available for about $1500 with WAAS GPS built in, for
use in glider tow and gliders. It sure would save out club a heap of $$$
for the tow plane, we are under the class b shelf.

BillT

I am not aware of any ADS-B *Out* product priced at about $1,500 with or
without being portable or with or without a built-in "WAAS GPS".

I suspect you are confusing this ADS-B Out and ADS-B In. Portable ADS-B
*In* receivers typically include a consumer grade WAAS chipset to locate
the aircraft's own position on weather and traffic displays and to provide
location/navigation data for external PDA/PNA/tablet navigation software.

ADS-B Out in gliders and towplane provides little value over other options
that are actually available, installable and well understood today. If you
want glider-glider and glider-towplane collision avoidance technology
install a PowerFLARM. If you are concerned about other traffic, PowerFLARM
PCAS and ADS-B 1090ES In can help, as can installing a transponder....
especially if the concern is fast jets and airliners.

If you operate under a Class B shelf your towplane will already have a
transponder, and unfortunately will also be required to equip with ADS-B
Out by January 2020. If not already equipped with one you should look at a
Mode-S 1090ES Out compatible transponder like a Trig TT-22. UAT Out devices
would be a very bad idea in a towplane as they won't be seen on a
PowerFLARM.

PowerFLARM would be a great solution if it supported TIS-B and was
coupled with an ADS-B OUT solution. Without TIS-B support, I'm totally uninterested.

Oh jeez what a surprise?

Where exactly is this mythical place you fly? What gliders do you fly today
and with what collision avoidance technology? What glider do you own?
Presumably if it is GA or other non-glider traffic that is your concern
that you have been posting for years on r.a.s. about you have been
operating transponders in your glider(s) for all that time right? If you
fly out of a club and have all these concerns about GS and other traffic
where you fly then presumably you have worked to have all their gliders
transponder equipped years ago, if not why not?

Darryl,
The industry is reacting fast to the clarifying information from the FAA:
http://www.aopa.org/News-and-Video/A...WT.mc_sect=tec
Here is your ADS-B OUT box for $699, including WAAS GPS engine. Only good for experimental and kit built LSAs but a good start.
I have a transponder and PFlarm in my 'experimental' glider but would this be an option for those in high-traffic areas who right now don't fly with a transponder? PFlarm shows ADS-B targets very precisely and obviously ATC would know where you are. What's your take on that, Darryl? Mike S, no need to chime in!
Herb

Herb, thanks for the link, I'll reply more including about that specific UAT transceiver when I have more time, but briefly.

This UAT transceiver would be a *very* bad option for gliders flying in high-traffic areas.

Unlike a transponder UAT Out does not interoperable with TCAS, certainly would never cause an RA to be issued. That big old jet airliner could fly right though you with no warning... its' simply just universally assumed that any aircraft getting near an airliner, fast-jet etc. at a minimum has a transponder (or a transponder and UAT Out, or a transponder with 1090ES Out, but *never* UAT Out only).

The dual-link insanity in the USA cases more problems than is worth. You can't just talk about ADS-B without needing to be clear about what link layer....

Be careful assuming PowerFLARM shows ADS-B traffic at all... It does shows 1090ES Out traffic very precisely, however it does not show UAT traffic *at all*. You would not see an aircraft equipped with this transceiver with a PowerFLARM.

As far as I know the PowerFLARM at least as it exists today (and I have no idea of future plans) does not support ADS-R (or TIS-B) and so cannot use the FAA's ground based infrastructure that can (if you are in range) translate between link layers, (and even if it did the receiving glider would also need ADS-B Out properly set up to advertise the aircraft is capable of receiving ADS-B on the right link layer.... so the ground infrastructure broadcasts traffic to it on the link-layer it can receive that on). Even if you had all this it would only work in areas at at altitudes where three is ADS-B ground station line of sight coverage. A painfully obvious issue there is that at many gliderports, small airports, large airports, etc.the traffic pattern and higher is all below this ADS-B ground infrastructure coverage. And a UAT Out equipped aircraft in that area just won't be seen by a 1090ES In equipped aircraft and visa-versa. The only solution there is for all aircraft to be equipped with receivers for both link layers (e.g. 1090ES In and UAT In). Many manufacturers are doing exactly that, and there is no way I'd put ADS-B In anything in a GA aircraft that was not dual-link receive.

For all these reasons it is important that anybody who really wants to equip a glider or towplane with ADS-B out does so with 1090ES Out systems. We should see prices on those 1090ES Out systems and GPS units continue to fall.. And the flip side of this is most glider or towplane pilots have no need to equip with ADS-B Out anything. PowerFLARM and/or Transponders provide a lot of value today without needing ADS-B Out.