On Thursday, April 23, 2015 at 5:04:54 PM UTC-5, son_of_flubber wrote:

You overlooked the sarcastic intent of my earlier post. I'd rather not come right out and say what I really think about the USA approach to Spin and Cloud Flying training (because I'm not a CFI-G or an elite pilot.)

My apologies, I must have had my sarcasm detector off when I read your post ;^]. I'll stand by my recommendation for the BGA's magazine - heads and shoulders better than Soaring!


But I think that the same USA mindset comes into play for both sorts of training. The UK mindset seems starkly different. I take it from Martin's comments that most UK glider pilots are confident about spin recovery and quite a few are confident about cloud flying. If you step outside the ranks of elite USA glider pilots, there are quite a few pilots that are not confident about spin recovery, and emergency cloud flying capability is rare, much rarer than glider pilots flying in wave.

I agree. A classic example in our club: we have a sweet K-13 bought new, that is placarded "Spins Prohibited". It was that way from day one on the FAA's Airworthiness Certificate. On a plane that is considered a good spin trainer by the rest of the civilized world....

However, if a pilot is not confident about spin recovery, or does not REALLY understand the consequences of getting caught IMC without gyro instruments (and training to use them) or terminal velocity dive brakes - ITS ON HIM to get that training! Elitism has nothing to do with it - survival does!


I expect that quite a few glider pilots like me get ****ed off when another pilot enters a spin at a recoverable altitude but dies. If I fly into IMC and die from lacking of training/instruments... I'm going to be really ****ed off.

****ed off? not worth it; too many stupid people doing stupid things to waste energy on being ****ed off. I do enough stupid things myself! Better to learn from their mistakes an avoid the same.


Sure. I can take the initiative to train IFR in a SEL and add instruments to my panel (but I can't practice in 'easy clouds', gain proficiency and stay current). Some individuals will do that. But if I lived in the UK, the training culture would have me ready to fly in clouds by now. The USA safety culture is broken wrt spins and cloud flying (and perhaps other scenarios are treated likewise).

In the UK, the regulatory environment makes it practical for glider to cloud fly. In the US, it really doesn't. Not impossible, just expensive and complicated. So, unless you have the time and money to rig your glider for IMC/IFR flight, and obtain and maintain IFR currency, you really don't have the option to fly in clouds, legally. And if you put yourself in a position where that happens, you are in a full blown emergency and should treat it as such! In the US, you should NEVER intentionally let yourself get in a position where you will get caught in clouds. Period. Under Cu's, it's not a real issue - you can stay clear if you pay attention. In wet wave, better be REAL careful; if you get trapped on top or enveloped in a lennie you might as well call MAYDAY to ATC and prepare for the worst - at least that way someone will know where to start looking for the wreckage!

One final comment about spins - I am convinced that most glider accidents attributed to spins are actually the result of a low speed departure into a spiral dive. At low altitude, the difference can be fatal - the actions for a spin recovery (full rudder against, stick forward) while accelerating in a spiral dive will basically spear you into the ground. Actual, no-**** SPINS have been pretty much designed out of almost all modern gliders except for those designed to teach then (or designed for aerobatics). So perhaps we need to stop worrying about "spin" recovery and emphasize "upset" or "departure from controlled flight" recovery, being able to determine what your glider is doing and respond accordingly.

Might save a few lives that way...

Kirk
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