I routinely look at traces for the patterns flown to our airport, and I fly closer than all but one or two (out of roughly 75 pilots) to the runway. Measuring traces, I fly roughly 1000' offset from the runway (800' out to a max of 1200'). Entering the pattern (TLAR) and using standard trigonometry, I may be no closer than a 45 look down to be at 1000'out. I do not like to be closer than that, and I flew USAF closed patterns in a previous life. Abeam touch down point, I look to be not lower than, and hopefully right near 30 degree look down/dip...less than 30 degrees I feel low and move it in and turn in sooner. I tend to do curvilinear patterns all the way around from this range and it is smooth and easily corrected at half speed brakes.

Measuring on Google Earth, to make the same turn from 600' seems like it would require me to fly way past my normal turn in point (45 back) or really play for a full speed brake, higher bank turn--needing a much higher level of flying perfection to make the landing spot than one should safely plan for. Simple math, 2D flight: 30 degree banked turn at 55 knots = 932 foot turn diameter. Same 55 knots, 45 degree bank = 538 foot turn diameter--not much margin for error at 600' offset (Seen anyone doing that for 180 degrees of turn and maintaining full boards to get down?? Didn't think so). I routinely fly the 30 degree bank around so I guess the math is close.

I agree with others based on the traces I've seen. If someone is claiming they use 45 degree dip/lookdown abeam touchdown point, on downwind, they aren't judging the angles correctly. I see most high performance sailplanes at least 2000 to 2500 feet away on average-much further than my little Pilatus likes to be. Which is fine, if they are consistently landing correctly as stated, that is TLAR to them no matter what they choose to name that angle. Having spent years rolling into 10, 20, 30, 45 and 60 degree dive bomb patterns, I can agree with others: they are thinking they are steeper than they really are (until they get more practice most new guys are always shallow). Same reason most pilots do not really get to 45 and 60 degrees of bank in thermals when they say they do....

Oh, and Kirk, I still do come up initial, pitch out and land in my glider like we did in fighters. The radio call confuses half the club: "Inbound, 1 mile north for initial, left break, stop south."

Squeaky