On Sunday, July 31, 2016 at 7:32:02 PM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
In all other situations a square pattern (or a modified square pattern) is far safer. Flying a button hook pattern puts the runway out of sight to the pilot, so it is hard to judge how far you have flown, making it much more likely that an overshoot or undershoot landing will occur.

What???Â* I always fly a descending 180 to short final and I never
lose sight of the runway.Â* What are you doing that puts you in that
position?Â* It's trivial to keep the landing point in view over your
shoulder until you begin the turn, unless you're flying way too far
out before beginning your final.


An important aspect of the square pattern, in addition to the visibility part, is to assess the winds aloft by the amount of crab required.

It's easy to assess winds on downwind and continuously through the
final turn without losing sight of the touchdown point. Drift is
recognized with peripheral vision and quick glances down at the
ground.Â* Final and opposite patterns are monitored from downwind
throughout the final turn.Â* Angle of descent is easily controlled by
keeping the angle to the touchdown point constant.




I have been flying lately in conditions of high cross winds (10-20 kt) and even higher gusts (20-30 kt). Having a stabilized base leg is essential to judge this

As said above, it's easy to judge during the downwind and throughout
the turn.


(the AWOS is just to old to be relied upon).

Very true!


If I were to fly a button hook pattern I would have a ground speed of 110-130 kt, given the high density altitudes we are flying and an 80 kt IAS (100 kt TAS + 10-30 kt tail wind)!

Why would you have a higher ground speed in turning flight than in
straight flight?


This translates to up to 220 ft/sec (a 180 deg turn takes 10-20 sec and complicates the design point on when to start the turn). If you hit unexpected sinking air during this turn you could be in a real pickle!

No, you're close enough that reducing dive brake will compensate for
any sink.Â* If you're in a location with known high sink on final,
e.g., Salida, CO, you should make your turn at the proper height and
distance from the runway.


You may not experience these conditions where you fly, but a lot of accidents occur when flatlanders venture into high density altitude airports.

I also like to have A LOT of altitude when entering the pattern (2,000 ft).

There goes flying where other pilots expect to see you!


It is easy to burn off that altitude in modern gliders and it gives me options if something unexpected happens (like a plane pulling out onto the runway unannounced). Altitude lost is like runway behind you - it doesn't do you any good.

Tom


Fly what works for you and don't disparage techniques that are out
of your sphere of experience.


--

Dan, 5J



On Sunday, July 31, 2016 at 7:32:02 PM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
In all other situations a square pattern (or a modified square pattern) is far safer. Flying a button hook pattern puts the runway out of sight to the pilot, so it is hard to judge how far you have flown, making it much more likely that an overshoot or undershoot landing will occur.

What???Â* I always fly a descending 180 to short final and I never
lose sight of the runway.Â* What are you doing that puts you in that
position?Â* It's trivial to keep the landing point in view over your
shoulder until you begin the turn, unless you're flying way too far
out before beginning your final.


An important aspect of the square pattern, in addition to the visibility part, is to assess the winds aloft by the amount of crab required.

It's easy to assess winds on downwind and continuously through the
final turn without losing sight of the touchdown point. Drift is
recognized with peripheral vision and quick glances down at the
ground.Â* Final and opposite patterns are monitored from downwind
throughout the final turn.Â* Angle of descent is easily controlled by
keeping the angle to the touchdown point constant.




I have been flying lately in conditions of high cross winds (10-20 kt) and even higher gusts (20-30 kt). Having a stabilized base leg is essential to judge this

As said above, it's easy to judge during the downwind and throughout
the turn.


(the AWOS is just to old to be relied upon).

Very true!


If I were to fly a button hook pattern I would have a ground speed of 110-130 kt, given the high density altitudes we are flying and an 80 kt IAS (100 kt TAS + 10-30 kt tail wind)!

Why would you have a higher ground speed in turning flight than in
straight flight?


This translates to up to 220 ft/sec (a 180 deg turn takes 10-20 sec and complicates the design point on when to start the turn). If you hit unexpected sinking air during this turn you could be in a real pickle!

No, you're close enough that reducing dive brake will compensate for
any sink.Â* If you're in a location with known high sink on final,
e.g., Salida, CO, you should make your turn at the proper height and
distance from the runway.


You may not experience these conditions where you fly, but a lot of accidents occur when flatlanders venture into high density altitude airports.

I also like to have A LOT of altitude when entering the pattern (2,000 ft).

There goes flying where other pilots expect to see you!


It is easy to burn off that altitude in modern gliders and it gives me options if something unexpected happens (like a plane pulling out onto the runway unannounced). Altitude lost is like runway behind you - it doesn't do you any good.

Tom


Fly what works for you and don't disparage techniques that are out
of your sphere of experience.


--

Dan, 5J

First off, I DIDN'T disparage anybody, but you certainly are. You have NO IDEA what my "sphere of experience" is, or my experience in general.

My original contention stands: a square pattern is far safer than a button hook pattern.

I DIDN'T say that your ground speed increases during your downwind turn. The point was you are covering a lot of ground fast and can end up further away from the runway than you expect.

You agreed that you CAN lose sight of the runway; not losing sight requires a tight "carrier landing" turn which precludes a stabilized final. This is okay if the situation dictates, low altitude or an expedited landing for traffic, but is generally less safe than a square pattern.

You are trying to convince others of the superiority of your technique and I am offering the opposite side of the discussion. You need to calm down and discuss things rationally.

Tom