First off, I DIDN'T disparage anybody, but you certainly are. You have NO IDEA what my "sphere of experience" is, or my experience in general.

To me, telling me that the way I fly is not safe is disparaging to me.
True, I don't know your experience, so why don't you tell me? I've flown
single, twin, and triple engined jets, single and twin recips, and twin
turboprop beginning 43 years ago. I've flown gliders for 30 years.
I've never damaged an aircraft in all that time including 5 dead stick
landings due to engine failures. I've flown 66 different types of
aircraft. I think that qualifies me to decide which traffic pattern is
best for me and I hope you'll note that I've never told anyone the
descending 180 turn to final is best, only best for me. If you've flown
more years, hours, or types, I respect that, but I don't think that
makes my opinion less valid or yours more. I get stirred up when folks
tell me that their way is the safest (or best or only) way.

This translates to up to 220 ft/sec (a 180 deg turn takes 10-20 sec and complicates the design point on when to start the turn). If you hit unexpected sinking air during this turn you could be in a real pickle!



Maybe I misunderstood you, but didn't you make reference to 220 feet per
second or 130 kts ground speed? I'd need a 60 kt tail wind on downwind
to achieve that kind of ground speed. If you really had a 60 kt tail
wind on down wind and flew a standard pattern, I'll wager you would not
have made it back to the runway.

When I flew an actual pattern with a wind 45 degrees to my right on
downwind and the GPS indicating 32 kts, I crabbed away from the runway
and spaced further, too. How much? Enough to fly a parallel ground
track. Did I fly past the end of the runway before beginning my 180 deg
descending turn to final? Heck no! I started the turn at mid field
since that was the location where I wanted to stop to clear the runway.
My wife, listening to AWOS, told me afterwards that the wind was gusting
to 50 kts!

I get a sense from your description that you profess flying a ground
track. If I'm wrong in that, I apologize. But in the above described
case a standard ground track would have resulted in me bouncing off the
side of the bluff upon which the airport is located. Simply stating
that "square is safer" is, to be blunt, a crock.

I DIDN'T say that your ground speed increases during your downwind turn. The point was you are covering a lot of ground fast and can end up further away from the runway than you expect.


Not me. I'm in control of my aircraft and won't ever end up further
away than I expect unless there's some reason to widen my pattern. And I
never said "downwind turn", what I said was "in turning flight" which is
exactly what the descending turn to final is.

And I said _you_ could lose sight of the runway if _you_ flew a long
downwind. I begin my turn from downwind at or just slightly beyond the
threshold. I said "you" could lose sight, not "I" could lose sight.

You are trying to convince others of the superiority of your technique and I am offering the opposite side of the discussion. You need to calm down and discuss things rationally.


Go back and see what I've said. I'm not trying to convince you or
anyone else that my way is better, though that's what the US Air Force
taught me and I think they know a bit about flying. I've only argued
that all of contentions that my way is unsafe are hogwash. What works
for me works for me. Fly any way you want but please quit telling me
that what I do is "unsafe". PS - I thought I was being rational but
apparently not, in your opinion.

On 8/1/2016 1:42 PM, 2G wrote:
First off, I DIDN'T disparage anybody, but you certainly are. You have NO IDEA what my "sphere of experience" is, or my experience in general.

My original contention stands: a square pattern is far safer than a button hook pattern.

I DIDN'T say that your ground speed increases during your downwind turn. The point was you are covering a lot of ground fast and can end up further away from the runway than you expect.

You agreed that you CAN lose sight of the runway; not losing sight requires a tight "carrier landing" turn which precludes a stabilized final. This is okay if the situation dictates, low altitude or an expedited landing for traffic, but is generally less safe than a square pattern.

You are trying to convince others of the superiority of your technique and I am offering the opposite side of the discussion. You need to calm down and discuss things rationally.

Tom

--
Dan, 5J