As usual most of my words are deleted, new tactic time though, simply
lie about what has been written. Denyav has decided to go back to
a message I wrote on June 14, bypassing the JN-25 information I
posted more recently. I await with interest his retrieval of information
I sent in say 1990 as another desperate tactic to avoid actually answering.

denyav wrote in message ...
"Geoffrey Sinclair" wrote in message ...
After my noting the way my text keeps being deleted it seems a
new tactic to obscure has been created, take the time and effort
to rearrange the order of the few words of mine left in.

Well, I do not remember any of your texts about the utmostly most
important detail of whole Pearl Harbor story,namely introduction of
JN25B code,being deleted.

Yes folks, if Denyav can forget about him deleting the text he can
simply pretend it did not happen. He started off passing Pearl
Harbor the movie as a source of facts and now finds the real
facts are coming out, so rewind to those simpler movie days.

Because you always avoided this issue and did not write anything about
that.

Translation Denyav will make a great effort to delete anything that
contradicts his preferred fiction. He will simply ignore what I wrote.

Let me repeat again,when Japanese introduced JN25B in Dec.1940,they
continued to use old random code books for another two months.
This was the one of the biggest ever intel blunders in the history and
you have missed it.Strange,to say at least.

Translation Denyav has replied to the message where I pointed out
what this meant and has now decided to lie about it rather than cope
with replying.

I expect him to heroically delete my reply and the heroically repeat he
is repeating his same junk. Two heroic acts means another self
awarded medal.

As I posted before,JN25 was a 19th century system,very identical to
the system used by US forces between 1898-1917 and reason why US
phased out this system was very simple;it was insecure.

Translation no proof brought forward, just a wishful thinking.

So.Japanese military dispatches were,as Churchill pointed out,not
secrets for US(also for Brits and Dutch)

Churchill pointed out all the messages they intercepted and decoded
were made public just after the war.

I guess you could not find time to post anything about that

Translation Denyav deletes things he does not like. The fun thing
is anyone can go and check on my posts, that is why I leave the
text in. It helps show up the lies.

The rest is cut and paste from my last post, on June 22,

The story so far,

1) the claims about the war warning message text, dropped after the
war warning text was actually posted. (the warnings are supposed to
make Pearl Harbor the only target)
2) the use of the character in the Pearl Harbor movie played by Dan
Aykroyd as a source of facts, dropped when it was revealed where
the name came from.
3) claims about the various investigations into the Pearl Harbor attack,
dropped when a list of such investigations was posted
4) attempts to promote the relatively recent congressional request to
promote General Short and Admiral Kimmel as proof of a conspiracy
are dropped, after the text of the resolution is posted.
5) claims about what Admiral Kimmel said are backed up by the URL
of the transcript of the congressional request meeting, Kimmel had
been dead for around 30 years before the meeting. The URL text
does not support pre knowledge of the attack and includes over
statements on Kimmels behalf (inventing 800 to 1,000 extra patrol
bombers available)
6) the claim the only investigation to clear Kimmel is the reliable one
despite the claim the findings and evidence have never been released.
Claim dropped again.
7) The claims the investigations were all rigged because it was one
entity investigating itself. Dropped since the claimed only investigation
to clear Kimmel was USN, the USN investigating the USN.
8) Hollywood is a US "premier quasi-governmental PSYOP organization."
Claim dropped.
9) The claim the US needed Pearl to be attacked, apparently the assaults
on Wake, Guam, Midway, the Philippines and US shipping were not enough.
Claim dropped.
10) The claim MacArthur received warnings Hawaii did not, claim dropped.
The same war warnings were sent to all commands in the Pacific.
11) the claim the "McCollum Memo" was a blueprint for US government
actions, dropped after the memo summary was posted, pointing out
what the memo actually said.
12) the claim McCollum was in charge of codebreaking dropped, his
memo header makes it clear he was in a different area.
13) If you write a book that says no conspiracy you are automatically
said to be pushing the official version, and such versions are claimed
to be wrong. No proof mind you. Claim dropped.
14) The conspiracy pushers cannot lie unless they receive official permission.
That was a good one.
15) There are still some USN intercept files still hidden, claim dropped.
16) The attempt to use Stinnett as a source appears to be dropped,
since the claims are so easy to prove wrong it seems. If you question
Stinnett directly he complains about spelling errors rather than reply.
17) The Lietwiler letter, claims dropped after the key text was posted.
18) Only in Washington are investigations rigged with hand picked
documents. Claim dropped.

Simple really, just keep dropping all the claimed evidence, but keep the
conclusion.

Most of my stuff is cut and paste, you become interested in WWII and
you find the same conspiracy claims surfacing over and over.

The fact the posts have to be deleted is the best proof they are
accurate. Also the fleeing forward to new claims, not defending
the old junk. It seems we are going to be treated to the tour of the
various conspiracy claims, which goes to prove what Denyav is
when he can quote a character in the Paral Harbor movie as a
source but also supply all the other conspiracy claims.

Since there are no sources for the following information can we assume
the nurse character in Pearl Harbor the movie is the source?

Presumably the British reporting the codes were hard to break is
also irrelevant?

1)They are not hard to break,they are actually 19th Century type codes that
somehow apperared in 20th century.

Note by the way there is no source for this claim, note the fact the
1930's are not that far into the 20th century. Radio and telegraph
communications forced the development of coding systems.

The code groups were disguised with random numbers, it forced
the US into using machines to break the code, to try and discover
the random numbers by comparing hundreds of messages. The
code breakers indicated this was a hard thing to do.

2)A very identical coding system was introduced in US in 1898 for
Navy and Army and and abondoned in 1917 because it was insecure.

So why didn't the US simply drag out the US code books and use
them? Perhaps because the systems were different? Please
describe the US systems, how they worked.

3)It has dictionary of 33,333 words and phrases each given as a five figure
number and these were added to random numbers contained in a 2nd code
book

Not quite, there were 33,333 valid code groups, in both the A and B
versions some were left blank for future expansion. In the B version
around 2/3 of the groups had a second meaning, giving around 55,000
valid meanings.

Random numbers were added to the code groups before transmission.

4)The dictionary was changed only once before Pearl Harbor on Dec 1,1940.
But random book was changed in every 3 to 6 months.

You forgot to mention the B version contained additional tables for
locations, date/time and positions, a super encypherment. These
tables were not broken out until mid 1942.

5)The Japanase blundered away the Code when they introduced
JN25B by continuing to use the random table books that have been
solved by the allies,for two more months.That was the equivalent of
reconstructing the exposed dictionary.US recovered the whole thing
immediately.

So now the lies begin. Firstly the failure to update the random number
book enabled the allies to confirm the basic system was still in place.
The valid code groups were 5 digit numbers divisible by 3. Secondly
the allies did not have all the valid random numbers, additives, used
to disguise the valid code groups, thirdly the Japanese did not put
out messages containing all 55,000 valid code group meanings in
the two months, December 1940 and January 1941.

As of Autumn 1940 the US had around 1,000 JN-25A code groups
it thought it knew the meanings for, work continued on the A version
until around March 1941, on 1 April 1941 there were 1,800 A
version groups "recovered", versus 300 B version groups. It should
be noted recoveries were not a linear process, new discoveries
could and did prove previously assigned meanings were wrong.

So if you know JB25B inroduction date,you also know when allies
cracked the code basically.

My cat has 4 legs and a tail my dog has 4 legs and a tail therefore
my dog is a cat. Simple sort of logic.

Put it to you thins way, you are given 30,000 5 digit random numbers,
which have 55,000 meanings. Solve instantly. Now solve when you
have less than 1/2 of the random numbers used to disguise the code
group values.

Now go work on this, if you know 10% of the random numbers and
10% of the code groups then, assuming randomness, around 1%
of the messages will contain code groups you know hidden by
random numbers you know.

To crack the code you needed to know the random numbers
and the code group values.

Just for the record,in 1994 NSA published that JN25B code was completely
cracked in December 1940.
They knew that many knew that and they finally admitted.

Yes folks this is the fun part of the lies.

“Early (Northern) Fall” 1940 the US code breakers realised the system
for numbers in JN-25A was the same as an old code the US has the
code book for, the code group was the number itself multiplied
by a constant. In a single day of checking the high frequency code
groups the code groups for the numbers 0 to 999 fell out, 1/30 of
the total code. Since all code these group values were divisible by
three it confirmed the tentative code group values previously
assigned were correct and told the code breakers valid code group
values were divisible by three.

After this discovery the task of further recoveries and exploiting
traffic was largely shifted to Corregidor, which for a time in 1940/41
was the largest USN code breaking unit, having completely absorbed
the Shanghai unit in December 1940. (SRH-179
notes that the personnel from Shanghai were transferred to Corregidor
in phases from August 1940 to December 1940. The last group of ten
men from Shanghai reported to Corregidor on 16 December 1940. Just
before that time the intercept and decryption efforts at Shanghai were
shut down.)

In effect Washington declared JN-25A “completely solved” and
“completely broken”, that is the system was understood and the
remaining work was in recovering and assigning meanings to code
groups, then exploiting the results. The result was most work was
directed at the earlier, now superseded versions, to try and recover
the underlying code groups, since there were many more messages
in those versions, the keys of the latest text additive book were also
targeted as intercepts built up. No attempt was made to read current
traffic.

See the different definitions being used? The USN used the definition
that it understood how the code system worked, it had cracked the
logic but it only had 1/30 of the code groups. The usual conspiracy
situation is to try and convince people what is being meant is 100%
recovery of code groups and random numbers.

6)In January 1941,US gave Britain two JN25B note books with keys

Ah yes, the US and UK combining recoveries is simply turned into
they had the entire code and additive books.

So here we go with another basic lie. One of the problems to sort out
in early 1941 was when the US and UK had different values for valid
random numbers and meanings for valid code groups.

7)Whole Pearl Harbor schema was based on this code.

You mean Yamamoto's letters to his staff were sent in JN-25B?
The couriered messages were in JN-25B?

This is really funny.

8)Between Sep1 and Pearl Harbor attack US intercepted total 26581
(acc.to NSA) JN25N coded messages.

Yes folks, apparently these messages were all about Pearl Harbor.

Deleted text,

"None of the messages found in the "Pre-Pearl Harbor Japanese Naval
Dispatches" file mention Pearl Harbor by name. (This file is found in
National Archives at College Park, RG 38, Crane Files, CNSG 5830/115; most
of the messages have also have been reprinted in "Pearl Harbor Revisited:
United States Navy Communications Intelligence, 1924-1941," an unclassified
monograph published by the National Security Agency in 1994.)"

The USN went back in 1945/46 and broke out as many of the pre war
messages as it could to see what they could have told. One of the
favourite tricks is to claim the 1946 dates are faked.

9)Churchill wrote "from the end of 1940 Americans had pierced vital
Japanase ciphers and were decoding large numbers of Japanase
MILITARY and diplomatic messages" GRAND ALLIANCE page 598

A more full version of the quote is,

"From the end of 1940 the Americans had pierced the
vital Japanese ciphers, and were decoding large
numbers of their military and diplomatic telegrams. In
the secret American circles these were referred to as
'Magics'. The 'Magics' were repeated to us, but there
was an inevitable delay - sometimes of two or three
days - before we got them. We did not know therefore
at any given moment all that the President or Mr. Hull
knew. I make no complaint of this."

This is a favourite quote of the conspiracy crowd, it is supposed
to be Churchill confessing the code breakings they want. Apparently
putting the boot into the recently deceased FDR and also himself.

The quote is above is on page 532 of the edition I have access to,
on page 535 comes the quote,

"A prodigious Congressional Inquiry published its findings in
1946 in which every detail was exposed of the events leading
up to the war between the United States and Japan and of
the failure to send positive "alert" orders through the military
departments to their fleets and garrisons in exposed situations.
Every detail, including the decoding of secret Japanese
telegrams and their actual texts, has been displayed to the
world in forty volumes. The strength of the United States was
sufficient to enable them to sustain this hard ordeal required
by the spirit of the American Constitution."

Simple really, fail to mention Churchill noted what the allies
had read they put into the public arena in 1946. Otherwise
the conspiracy requires Churchill to be alternatively the truth
bringer and telling lies.

And remember the IJN had more than 1 code in service, as
did the IJA, but just pretend Churchill's first quote has an
extra line with JN-25B in it.

Hard to break JN25B code is an urban legend created in Washington
D.C.to cover treason.

Translation telling lies about JN-25 is an attempt to cover someone's
inability to cope with reality.

Geoffrey Sinclair
Remove the nb for email.