Ah yes the near total erase and change the subject approach, take 6.
Now we are into claims being simply recycled, so
The story so far,
1) the claims about the war warning message text, dropped after the
war warning text was actually posted. (the warnings are supposed to
make Pearl Harbor the only target)
2) the use of the character in the Pearl Harbor movie played by Dan
Aykroyd as a source of facts, dropped when it was revealed where
the name came from.
3) claims about the various investigations into the Pearl Harbor attack,
dropped when a list of such investigations was posted
4) attempts to promote the relatively recent congressional request to
promote General Short and Admiral Kimmel as proof of a conspiracy
are dropped, after the text of the resolution is posted.
5) claims about what Admiral Kimmel said are backed up by the URL
of the transcript of the congressional request meeting, Kimmel had
been dead for around 30 years before the meeting. The URL text
does not support pre knowledge of the attack and includes over
statements on Kimmels behalf (inventing 800 to 1,000 extra patrol
bombers available)
6) the claim the only investigation to clear Kimmel is the reliable one
despite the claim the findings and evidence have never been released.
Claim dropped again.
7) The claims the investigations were all rigged because it was one
entity investigating itself. Dropped since the claimed only investigation
to clear Kimmel was USN, the USN investigating the USN.
8) Hollywood is a US "premier quasi-governmental PSYOP organization."
Claim dropped.
9) The claim the US needed Pearl to be attacked, apparently the assaults
on Wake, Guam, Midway, the Philippines and US shipping were not enough.
Claim dropped.
10) The claim MacArthur received warnings Hawaii did not, claim dropped.
The same war warnings were sent to all commands in the Pacific.
11) the claim the "McCollum Memo" was a blueprint for US government
actions, dropped after the memo summary was posted, pointing out
what the memo actually said.
12) the claim McCollum was in charge of codebreaking dropped, his
memo header makes it clear he was in a different area.
13) If you write a book that says no conspiracy you are automatically
said to be pushing the official version, and such versions are claimed
to be wrong. No proof mind you. Claim dropped.
14) The conspiracy pushers cannot lie unless they receive official permission.
That was a good one.
15) There are still some USN intercept files still hidden, claim dropped.
16) The attempt to use Stinnett as a source appears to be dropped,
since the claims are so easy to prove wrong it seems. If you question
Stinnett directly he complains about spelling errors rather than reply.
17) The Lietwiler letter, claims dropped after the key text was posted.
18) Only in Washington are investigations rigged with hand picked
documents. Claim dropped.
19) JN-25 was an "easy" code, claim dropped.
20) Churchill quote meaning, claim dropped.
21) If you know one thing perfectly you must know another thing perfectly
(in an attempt to "prove" 1941 = 2001)
22) The war warnings become a blind rather than identifying Pearl as
the target.
Denyav wrote in message ...
the claims about the war warning message text, dropped after the
war warning text was actually posted. (the warnings are supposed to
deleted text,
"make Pearl Harbor the only target)"
Dropped in your dreams maybe?
No it is quite simple, the way the claims can never exist alongside
a reply pointing out their flaws, means the claims are dropped.
I am ignoring those who simply demand their word is holy writ.
deleted text to the next ""
"Yes folks, actually posting the text of War Warning messages, the
McCollum Memo and so on is hiding the facts. Remember the
absence of proof of a conspiracy is proof of two conspiracies,
the first one and the cover up.
By the way playing by my rules would require full replies, instead
of the sad attempts to erase the facts.
Apparently there is just enough time to spout the lies, but not to
defend them.
This is funny really, the original claim was the war warning message
"They also added that Pearl Harbor was only possible target.period."
Now the 180 degree turn to make it a blind for the commanders
in Hawaii."
Yes folks, just ignore the text of the message, the Hawaiian
commands were certainly not ordered to do nothing.
By the way the message is now mine, all mine, isn't that wonderful?
It needs to be made a non historical document it seems, and given
a new title as well, anything but deal with what it actually said.
The War warning sent to Pearl on 26 November, to the Army,
"Negotiations with Japanese appear to be terminated to all practical
purposes with only the barest possibilities that the Japanese
Government might come back and offer to continue. Japanese future
action unpredictable but hostile action possible at any moment. If
hostilities cannot, repeat can not, be avoided the U. S. desires that
Japan commit the first overt act. This policy should not, repeat not,
be construed as restricting you to a course of action at might jeopardize
your defense. Prior to Japanese hostile action you are directed to
undertake such reconnaissance and other measures as you deem
necessary but these measures should be carried out so as not, repeat
not, to alarm the civil population or disclose intent. Report measures
taken. Should hostilities occur, you will carry out task signed in Rainbow
Five as far as they pertain to Japan. Limit dissemination of this highly
secret information to minimum essential officers. "
To the navy,
"Consider this dispatch a war warning. The negotiations with Japan in
an effort to stabilize conditions in the Pacific have ended. Japan is
expected to make aggressive move within the next few days. An
amphibious expedition against either the Philippines, Thai, or Kra
Peninsula or possibly Borneo is indicated by the number and equipment
of Japanese troops and the organization of their naval task forces. You
will execute a defensive deployment in preparation for carrying out the
tasks assigned in WPL-46 only. Guam, Samoa and Continental Districts
have been directed to take appropriate measures against sabotage. A
similar warning is being sent by the War Department. Inform naval district
and Army authorities. British to be informed by Spenavo."
The navy received a copy of the army message on 28 November.
Strategy and Command, the first two years by Louis Morton, (US Army
in WWII, War in the Pacific series)
page 119,
"In view of the seriousness of the situation, the Army and Navy chiefs
felt that commanders in the Pacific should be warned immediately.
Already, the Navy had sent out word on the 24th-to be passed on to
the Army commanders-that prospects for an agreement with Japan
were slight and that Japanese troop movements indicated that "a
surprise aggressive movement in any direction, including attack on
Philippines or Guam" was a possibility. [37] Now, on the 27th,
Stimson asked General Gerow whether the Army should not send a
warning. Gerow showed him the Navy message of the 24th, but this
failed to satisfy Stimson who observed that the President wanted a
warning message sent to the Philippines. As a result, a fresh warning,
considered a "final alert," was sent to Hawaii, the Philippines, Panama,
and San Francisco. The commander of each of these garrisons was
told of the status of the negotiations with Japan, the imminence of
hostilities, and the desirability of having Japan commit the "first overt
act." Each was instructed to "undertake such reconnaissance and other
measures" as he thought necessary and to carry out the tasks assigned
in the war plan if hostilities occurred. With the exception of MacArthur,
each of the commanders was also warned not to alarm the civilian
population or to "disclose intent." At the same time G-2 of the War
Department sent an additional and briefer message to Hawaii and
Panama, but not to the Philippines, warning against subversive activities."
http://www.army.mil/cmh-pg/books/70-7_04.htm
has the text on line, in this case on page 117. Strange as it might seem
the army basically sent the same message to all its Pacific commands.
Ok.Lets repeat events again
Big lie time returns.
a)Yamamatos "target Pearl Harbor" message intercepted and decoded
by US and Brits on Nov.25 and by Dutch on Nov.27.
Deleted text,
"You mean the one the IJN couriered to the fleet in Hittokapu bay?
You see IJN custom was to send such orders by courier. Things
like making sure the rest of the IJN was not eavesdropping on
such sensitive information. After all any ship or shore station in
the fleet that picked up the message could take a look at the
contents and Yamamoto wanted it to be a secret operation.
The Nurse character in the Pearl Harbor movie told you right?
It is quite simple, when Denyav actually tries to put a source for the
claims up it is shot down, so we are left with claims with no proof."
b)After intercepting and decoding "Target Pearl Harbor" mesage on Nov.25,
US issued so-called War Warning message on Nov.26 for locations thousands
miles away from Pearl Harbor,BUT NOT for Pearl Harbor,the name of target
mentioned in Yamamatos dispatch !!!!.)
Deleted text,
"Yes folks, I suppose people are aware of what else happened on
26 November, the transmission of the US terms for negotiations
to the Japanese. In effect a restatement of the original US terms,
ones Japan had already said were unacceptable. The US was
also aware of the 29 November "Things are automatically going
to happen" deadline for negotiations to succeed in Japanese
terms.
Strange isn't it, the diplomats conclude negotiations are off, so
the time has come to send a war warning. Instead the great
conspiracy has to decide because they happened on the
same date they must be related.
Just forget the allies were not decoding JN-25 in November
1941, that the message in question was not radioed according
to the IJN, that intercepted messages from the Pacific came
to Washington via airmail and sea mail, but this message,
never radioed, never decoded, was decoded in real time and
sent to Washington in real time and in an instant the US
organised a cover up, for the people in the Pacific and Washington
and London and the Dutch."
By the way the IJN never used the words Pearl Harbor in a JN-25B
message, it had a geographic designator, remember AF = Midway
and the way the USN had to send the famous fresh water message
to remove doubts about what AF stood for? But do not worry about
this, just assume perfect US knowledge pre war and then they lose
it as soon as war is declared.
(BTW the Naval Court of Inquiry that exonorated Kimmel found that so called War
Message directed attention away from Hawaii rather than toward to it and
exonarated Kimmel)
How can this be known when the claim is the USN investigation has
been kept secret, or is that claim to be dropped, along with the
"Investigating themselves" claims as a reason to discredit the results
that are not liked?
2)After receiving Yamamato's "Target Pearl Harbor" message US did
not only try to direct attention AWAY from Pearl Harbor by issuing so
called War Warning,but also ordered ALL allied shipping to take
Southern course,creating a shipping free sea lane for the passage of
Japanase Task Force!.
yes folks, if FDR wore green socks on 26 November that is a signal.
Sneezing twice was the go code. Anything that happens on 26
November is to be considered proof of whatever is wanted proven.
By the way work out the sailing time from the US to the mid Pacific
and note if the US wanted to avoid interceptions the ban needed to
be in place before the IJN sailed. Also note the US did not control
all allied shipping, only US and there were Soviet freighters moving
between Siberia and the US west coast. So much for all shipping.
Above all ignore the fact that the direct route from the US to the
Philippines was dominated by Japanese airbases.
2) the use of the character in the Pearl Harbor movie played by Dan
Aykroyd as a source of facts, dropped when it was revealed where
the name came from.
Do you need the facts?
Translation movie characters are on the way out for the moment,
writers of bad conspiracy theories are put in place.
I can give you more than you bargained for,for example check out:
FOIA#F-1998-00977
The claim attached to the above magic numbers, is
"CIA Director Allen Dulles told people that US was warned in
mid-November that the Japanese Fleet had sailed east past
Tokyo Bay and was going to attack Pearl Harbor. "
Note by the way the CIA is now a good guy source, since it is
apparently telling us what the conspiracy wants. This is used
by Mark Willey in his attempts to prove the conspiracy. Mark's
standard of proof has things like FDR assassinating Joe Kennedy,
based on a single sentence from Kennedy senior.
By the way if you are going to be silly enough to quote Mark Willey's
ideas of research I assume you subscribe to his claims the conspiracy
extended to trying to lose Coral Sea and Midway, that Pearl Harbor
never received any help in cracking JB-25B, they had to do it all by
themselves from scratch?
Quoting Mark Willey is a sign of desperation. You should see his
careful editing of documents.
3) claims about the various investigations into the Pearl Harbor attack,
dropped when a list of such investigations was posted
Posted with Auto poster ?
3) claims about the various investigations into the Pearl Harbor attack,
dropped when a list of such investigations was posted
4) attempts to promote the relatively recent congressional request to
promote General Short and Admiral Kimmel as proof of a conspiracy
are dropped, after the text of the resolution is posted.
Posted with Autoposter?
4) attempts to promote the relatively recent congressional request to
promote General Short and Admiral Kimmel as proof of a conspiracy
are dropped, after the text of the resolution is posted.
1) the claim the "McCollum Memo" was a blueprint for US government
actions, dropped after the memo summary was posted, pointing out
what the memo actually said.
You have outright lied here the famed McCollum memo IS the blueprint for FDRs
Japan policy and the date of McCollum memo is Oct.7,1940,so not after Pearl
Harbor like you have claimed.
This is quite funny, it appears my posting the memo with the date
on it is telling lies about the date. McCollum memo below.
I will be interested to see where I have ever claimed the memo was
written post 7 December 1941.
My summary of the memo,
So 8 recommendations, the first 4 were not followed, the fifth was not
followed at the time, though more submarines were sent and then even
more in late 1941, the sixth and seventh had already happened before
the memo was written, the eighth finally happened around 9 months
later and only after further Japanese expansion.
Just remember the memo is the claimed blueprint for US government
policy.
All of this had to be deleted, along with the fact the memo never made
it beyond McCollums boss. So claim dropped.
Apparently you have run out of arguments to prove your case.
Hey Denyav's delete key has broken.
Heck I expected much better than that from you initially.
Hey, I had to find something else to do this lunchtime, even with two
replies to put all the deleted text back into.
The rest is largely deleted text, just the key points this time, the amount of
text being ignored has grown too large.
I pinched the memo "highlights" from another post, note how the
memo is addressed to the directors, not someone in the white
house, yet it is supposed to make it to FDR in time for him to
make it the lunchtime conversation the next day, the "proof" FDR
saw the memo, just ignore the diary of the person FDR lunched with.
"Op-16-F-2 ONI (Office of Naval Intelligence) 7 October 1940
Memorandum For The Directors
Subject: ESTIMATE OF THE SITUATION IN THE PACIFIC AND RECOMMENDATIONS FOR ACTION OF THE UNITED STATES..."
A. Make an arrangement with Britain for the use of British
bases in the Pacific, particularly Singapore."
The USN did not use British bases until after the war started.
There was a conference in Manila about cooperation but it
ended with the sighting of the IJN invasion convoys heading
for Malaya. So this never happened pre war.
By the way the German Japanese naval base agreement
had been signed in 1940 or earlier.
"B. Make an arrangement with Holland for the use of base facilities
and acquisition of supplies in the Dutch East Indies" (now Indonesia)."
As for point A. Never happened pre war.
"C. Give all possible aid to the Chinese government of Chiang
Kai-shek."
30 aircraft in 1940, 141 in 1941, compared with 1,507 for the
British in 1940 and 5,249 in 1941. The USSR received more
aircraft than China, in fact the "other foreign" column has 787
aircraft delivered at the US factories. All possible aid would
have been a lot more aircraft for a start.
By the way the 30 aircraft for China in 1940 were trainers,
70 of the 1941 aircraft were trainers, 53 fighters, 18 light bombers.
So I presume the German sale of 12 aircraft to China in 1937
is an indicator Germany is giving all aid as well?
How about the German military advisors present on the Chinese
side in the late 1930s? I think they were withdrawn in 1939.
"D. Send a division of long-range heavy cruisers to the western
Pacific, the Philippines and Singapore."
Didn't happen, hint Manila is in the western pacific, it had a heavy
and a light cruiser plus the occasional extra cruiser passing through.
"E. Send two divisions of submarines to the western Pacific."
There were already USN submarines based in Manila, and the
memo's ideas of reinforcements was not followed. As a guide
to the changes note the USN had 96 submarines available, some
in reserve, in September 1939, the older boats were brought out
of reserve after war began in Europe and the total number
available grew steadily to 112 by the end of November 1941.
By the way USN submarine deployments to Manila from
DANFS, according to my by hand counts.
11/24 (yes 24) onward S-36, S-37, S-38, S-39, S-40, S-41
7/1925 to 5/1932 S-30, S-31, S-32, S-33, S-34, S-35
So until the depression the USN had 12 submarines present.
12/39 onward Porpoise, Pike, Tarpon, Perch, Pickerel, Permit
So the 12 submarine force is restored.
1939 Searaven "two years before war" my bet it should be with the
5 following submarines to make another 6 ship squadron and
arrived at the end of 1940.
1940 Seawolf (autumn)
10 or 11/40 Stingray, Seadragon, Sealion
12/40 Shark
1941 month unknown Snapper (probably 11/41), Sailfish (after 3/41
at least since that was the month it started a refit in the US)
11/41 Salmon, Seal, Sturgeon, Sargo, Saury, Spearfish, Sculpin,
Swordfish, Skipjack
Total 29, the force at the start of the war, I think 4 were
refitting on 8 December.
"F. Keep the main strength of the U.S. fleet, now in the Pacific, in
the vicinity of the Hawaiian Islands."
Done before the memo was written, the memo is dated in October,
the basing decision was on 1 May 1940.
"G. Insist that the Dutch refuse to grant Japanese demands for
undue economic concessions, Particularly oil."
Add the British as well, it made no sense for the US to
embargo oil if the Dutch and British would replace the
lost sales. The US did not need to do much to persuade
the Dutch, the Japanese idea of terms of trade did much
to persuade the Dutch extra trade was not worth it.
"H. Completely embargo all trade with Japan, in collaboration
with a similar embargo imposed by the British Empire."
Finally happened, however the memo forgets to add the Dutch
to the embargo.
FDR had imposed trade embargoes on aviation fuel, lubricants
and high grade scrap metal on 25 July 1940. On 26 September
scrap iron was added to the list.
In the first week in October, that is just before the memo was written
the US ordered all Americans out of the far east, called up the naval
reserve and authorised Anglo-American staff talks in Singapore.
Additional supplies were sent to the Philippines as well.
Remember folks, the memo is supposed to be the blueprint, apparently
able to influence decisions before it was written.
The Japanese negotiations with the Dutch over oil finally ended in the
first week in October, with no gains for the Japanese.
"10. If by these means Japan could be led to commit an overt act
of war, so much the better. At all event we must be fully
prepared to accept the treat of war."
Yes, Japan preferred war to giving up the chance to colonise China.
So 8 recommendations, the first 4 were not followed, the fifth was not
followed at the time, though more submarines were sent and then even
more in late 1941, the sixth and seventh had already happened before
the memo was written, the eighth finally happened around 9 months
later and only after further Japanese expansion.
Just remember the memo is the claimed blueprint for US government
policy.
Japanese is a very context sensitive language, one of the major
efforts of the translators was to take broken out code groups and
try and figure out the meaning of the groups, the code recovery work.
Think of it this way
11111 22222 33333 44444 11111 55555.
Now tell me the meaning.
How about
The 22222 33333 44444 the 55555.
We are reading 1/3 of the message folks.
Another clue.
The 22222 33333 on the 55555.
50% readable now, surely the text is obvious.
The cat 33333 on the 55555.
2/3 readable.
The cat sat on the 55555.
Think you can fill in the final word?
Of course the message "The cat 33333 on the 55555."
could be "The cat slept on the chair".
The translators did much more than translating decrypted documents.
Geoffrey Sinclair
Remove the nb for email.