"Roy Smith" wrote in message
...
"Chip Jones" wrote:
Here's the deal.

An interesting choice of words :-)

Ya well, as we say in Class E between IFR's and VFR's, "no dent, no deal".


Hard to say for sure, but I can offer a few insights from my own
experiences. As a general rule, if the controller says, "immediately",
I put my life in his hands, follow orders, and ask questions later.

I've only once heard the phrase "traffic alert". I was IFR, the
controller was not talking to the other guy. It was not solid IMC, but
there was plenty of IMC around. I can only guess the other guy was not
legal VFR.

I don't routinely have to issue traffic alerts either. Usually this sort of
call eventually results in "traffic in sight, thanks Center".



In this case, the controller did not issue a suggested heading. My
response was to turn 90 degrees away from the direction the traffic was
being called. I can certainly see your point where turning directly
into the traffic would have put me behind him, but that wasn't my
instinctive reaction.

I agree it is counter intuitive, and no matter what the controller is safely
on the ground regardless of where the pilot ends up. Not trying to be
cynical, either.


I suspect your traffic call may have been by the book, but on the other
hand, it was probably too verbose to really be useful to the pilot. I'm
guessing that with each successive traffic call leading up to the alert,
the pilot was getting increasingly antsy about the unseen traffic, and
already working out an escape plan -- "bad stuff to the right, I gotta
get left, away from the danger". All it took was hearing the words
"traffic alert" to trigger that plan into action.

Thanks for the insight Roy- I follow you.


I just timed how long it took me to calmly read the above clearance.
Seven seconds between "traffic alert" and "heading 180". At standard
rate, the guy's already 20 degrees into his left turn before he knows
you want him to turn right (and I'm not sure I would limit myself to
standard rate in response to a traffic alert).

I'm betting that's exactly how it went down. I did not observe the Baron's
maneuver until well after it began, so I can't really judge when it began.
I didn't even catch the altitude bust until a couple of updates later.
You're right, he was probably ready to execute a maneuver as soon as he got
the TA.

More than the physics of
changing heading, consider the human factors -- he's already made a
decision and acted on it. He's already made the mental leap from
obeying instructions to acting on his own. It's not going to be easy to
get him back into the fold quickly.

Well the PIC was definitely decisive in the event. He didn't bandy any
words, and it was clear that he was set on the left turn because he didn't
hesitate one instant when he told me he was turning left.


My guess is, by-the-book or not, a better way to say it might have been,
"Barron 123, traffic alert, immediate left turn, heading 180". Get it
right up front what you want the guy to do.


That's good advice. I'll put that in the bag of tricks.


I fully understand the reason the book wants the phrasing the way it
does. It's the PIC's decision, and the controller is just feeding the
PIC information which will let the PIC make an informed decision. The
problem is, I don't think it works that way in real life. It's hard
enough working CPA problems (Closest Point of Approach; do they call it
that in the ATC world?) looking at a screen or a plotting sheet. It's
damn near impossible in your head with nothing better than an O'Clock
traffic call, some dubious WCA, an unknown speed and cardinal heading on
the target, and no formal training.

I can't even imagine. We don't call it CPA. We call it Point of
Convergence down here. Dunno if that is FAA standard.


PIC-correctness, legality, and liability issues aside, the fact is the
controller is the one with the best picture of what's going on, and it
makes the most sense for the controller to take charge and issue an
unambigious instruction, with no extraneous information to get in the
way of communicating the one thing you really want to communicate: which
way to turn.

No doubt about that. I will point out that when I suggest something on
frequency like in this event, I do use the command voice. I don't hesitate
on the radio when I am working airplanes. The only difference in my
transmission between a suggestion and an instruction is the word "suggest".
Otherwise I try to make it sound calm but imperitive.


It's a pity there's no mechanism to plan stuff like this a little
further in advance. At the 5-mile point, it would be nice if I could
hear, "Hold current heading for now. If you don't see him in another 3
miles, I'm going to turn you left to pass behind him". Does "the book"
allow for such a conversation?

If you ask for it, certainly. And I have been known to issue timely ATC
instructions to IFR aircraft to avoid VFR aircraft in Class E, which is
stretching the rules but can be justified as "good judgement". I find it
easier to do this between a known VFR and IFR rather than between an IFR and
an unknown intruder.

In the actual event though, I did not recognize that this particular
situation was developing into a close call until after it was going down.


[snipped]


Think about what was going on from the pilot's perspective. You kept
telling him, "Something bad might be happening soon. I know the best
way to deal with it, but I won't tell you what it is yet. Don't worry,
though, at the last possible second I'll clue you in on the plan and
then expect you to react immediately".

Well, I can see how the pilot could have that perspective. However, I
truely didn't know the best way to deal with it (south vector) until about
four miles because the VFR was maneuvering vertically according to his mode
C. I was banking that the VFR and the IFR would see and avoid if I only
gave the IFR a few good traffic calls. (Wrong!) This event occurred on a
Sunday around 1300L in Class E about 50 miles NE of ATL. This airspace sees
an awful lot of unknown VFR's because it is convenient to the Atlanta
terminal area, is outside of Tracon airspace (and the Class B rings) and is
a good place for the various flights schools at the satellite fields like
RYY, LZU, 47A and PDK to conduct flight training without getting a KingAir
or Citation enema. (You can't swing a dead cat inside the terminal area
without hitting a VFR target on a Sunday afternoon). I could have vectored
the Baron early "for traffic" only to have this unknown VFR swing back
around towards Atlanta and right at him or something.


Well, anyway, that's my take on it. Other people will probably have
different opinions.

No doubt, but as always I do appreciate your take.

Chip, ZTL




----== Posted via Newsfeed.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeed.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 100,000 Newsgroups
---= 19 East/West-Coast Specialized Servers - Total Privacy via Encryption =---