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Old March 20th 17, 05:46 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
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Default All US Records are Now Motor Glider Records

On Sunday, March 19, 2017 at 12:17:43 PM UTC-7, Sierra Whiskey wrote:
Not the first time my opinions have been thought of as "Deplorable" but I am okay with that.

We are getting closer to the root of the problem. There is a distinct difference between a "Low Save" and pushing into unlandable territory. I am not saying record setting flights involve low saves. In fact I have said that a number of times. The "danger" aspect is flying in an area where a safe glide cannot be made to a suitable landing option. Flying in Arizona, there are many places where I can be flying at 8,000 feet AGL, and not be able to reach a place to land. (Break your glider country) This concept cannot be derived from any flight logs unless we had an analytic tool to determine where every suitable landing option is. For all I know someone could be at 14,000 feet over the desert and have no where to safely land within glide. Well, unless you had a motor with Plenty of altitude to get it started.

Your "Alternative Fact" that "Most off-airport landings in the western desert involve damage" is disproved by the MANY landouts I have had while soaring in the Arizona and New Mexico desert. And trust me, I land out a Lot! I have not broken a glider (Knock on Wood), but I have met many land owners! It is due to planning and always having options. An option I don't have in a pure glider is motoring out.

I invite you to tape your engine shut and see if the way you fly changes at all. Even a hint of a thought that "the motor is back there" while flying changes the game and the way you fly. Sailing a boat with a motor changes where you sail your boat. (Wouldn't want to get stuck out in the open water without favorable winds?)

I get it that you are offended that I view your motor glider as a non-pure glider, but that is a personal belief that you hold, not shared by a lot of the world. (Paraphrased) But pretending that they do not have a distinct advantage during the performance of a record attempt equally lacks merit. Particularly I don't see comments from many Motor-Glider record holders showing up here to defend their position.

All I am saying is that Motor Gliders are not Pure Gliders, and thus treating them the same on the record sheet when they have been treated separately for so many years makes no sense. Why the consolidation? Was there a complaint by motor glider pilots that they couldn't claim pure glider records, or was this a knee jerk (good idea fairy) action that had no development or reason other than to simplify the record sheets? Where is the supporting data used to implement the change?

"Was there a complaint by motor glider pilots that they couldn't claim pure glider records..." no, much worse: they couldn't claim ANY record. Go back and read the third post. The IGC does not recognize the distinction, and yet you must get the national body to certify the record first, effectively eliminating US based international record attempts. It is my understanding that is the reason for the change - to allow US pilots to compete with the rest of the world. Otherwise it wouldn't matter.

Come up with some (any!) evidence for your theory and we'll have a discussion. Supposition and speculation by someone unfamiliar with the type is not persuasive. Your position is one of Faith. I like Ambrose Bierce's definition of the term: "The belief without question, if people who speak without knowledge, of things without parallel." None of these records are held by people pushing into unlandable territory, whether or not they have a motor. Had you taken my suggestion and looked at the traces you would see that, but the Faithful don't look for facts. I haven't soared in Arizona, but I have soared the Great Basin for 20 years and there are not many experienced open glider pilots looking for off airport outlandings. It happens, and you can get away with it sometimes in a 15m - that's about as optimistic as it gets.

As far a consolidation, since the average age of non-motorglider records is around 22 years, I think we can call the category effectively dead. The historical reason for a motorglider category is that they used to be much lower performance than open class gliders. There are now almost no open class gliders without motors, and there is no performance difference with or without, therefore no longer a reason for the category. 15m and standard category still exist and are effectively motor free - but no one is making record attempts in them either.