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Old October 12th 18, 09:23 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Alastair Lyas[_2_]
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Posts: 5
Default ADSB panel display


Is RAS for the US only? Are you going to build a (fire)wall?


At 21:47 11 October 2018, Darryl Ramm wrote:
On Thursday, October 11, 2018 at 2:30:05 AM UTC-7, Alastair

Lyas wrote:
Might be worth waiting for products combining both ADSB

and=20
Flarm?


The uAvionix SkyEcho 2 is innovative in ways, but to me it has lots

of
limi=
tations and is just not that interesting for the USA glider market at
least=
, which is why I've not mentioned it before on r.a.s. But here

goes...

I always expect there is interesting stuff coming, but folks do

need to
be=
a little careful what they might decide to wait for. Well over a

decade
ag=
o some folks in the Minden area were waiting for mythical UAT

devices that
=
never happened, lots of handwaving not grounded in reality, and in

some
cas=
es owners unfortunately were putting off transponder adoption

because of
th=
at. Let's not repeat anything like that again. And for the SkyEcho 2

we
don=
't need to wait to actually look at what this device does or does not

do
si=
nce documentation has been available for a while. And much of my

comments
b=
elow come from just reading that documentation... but OK, with a

pretty
goo=
d understanding of the underlying technology.

The SkyEcho 2 does not include a FLARM transceiver, so in the

USA today
you=
would be adding a PowerFLARM to it via the FLARMBridge option

to get
FLARM=
capability. That immediately makes it uninteresting to lots of

glider
owne=
rs. According to the documentation the combined devices do *not*

take
ADS-B=
traffic and output that on a FLARM serial protocol link so the usual
traff=
ic displays used in a glider can see them... it seems to only works

the
oth=
er way and takes FLARM traffic and adds it to what is being sent

over
GLD-9=
0 protocol to GA EFBs etc. The reverse of what most glider pilots

want in
a=
cockpit (and what PowerFLARM does today for 1090ES Direct

traffic). And
I'=
ll bet it converts PowerFLARMs more useful traffic warnings say

when
therma=
lling with other gliders into ADS-B warnings going off all the time
nonsen=
se. And given how the FLARM ICD (serial protocol) and GLD-90

works I doubt
=
there is any sane way not to have to do that. But OK, it is what it

is,
and=
very clearly this product is *not* aimed at gliders.

I'm not sure uAvionix have promised USA FCC approval for that

device yet.
I=
expect they are likely to. It's not FCC approved today so can't

even be
ad=
vertised in the USA... which may well be why there is nothing

mentioned on
=
their USA website or why they don't want to irritate the FCC by

even
talkin=
g about it. Having been to the FCC approval mosh pit (I was going

to call
=
it a dance :-)) several times before uAvionix should know very

well what
t=
hey are doing with FCC approval.

Their launch for the product was very UK centric, which was pretty
interest=
ing given how far behind overall ADS-B adoption is in Europe vs.

the USA,
t=
hey seem to be hoping to move that needle, ride on UK interest in

TABS and
=
FIS-B trials and combining some FLARM capability. So quite a

intersting
kit=
chen sink of a product for those uses and very interesting that

uAvionix
ar=
e so growth oriented they are lookin at trying to seed that market.

So then you want to ask if you need an actual PowerFLARM device

to
connect=
to the SkyEcho 2 to do FLARM then what else does the SkyEcho 2

provide,
a=
nd importantly is it a replacement for a transponder?

Importantly the SkyEcho 2 *not* a full transponder but does

implement
TABS/=
TSO-C199 so should provide compatibility with TCAS which is

obviously
impor=
tant. I'd love to see one working. ATC will likely not see that device
howe=
ver and that's going to be an issue in many places near busy ATC

areas.
AT=
C *does* sees Trig transponders running as TABS devices, as they

are full
t=
ransponders underneath the TABS 1090ES Out part. The ATC

visibility part
is=
a large concern for me, especially around places like the Minden

area
whic=
h this thread started with. Without ATC visibility I would not

recommend
th=
at device for use in that area. I'd love to eventually get my hands

on one
=
to confirm and to talk about it with the friendly NOCAL TRACON

tech folks
w=
ho cover the Reno area.

You also can't install this (or any other TABS) device in an aircraft

with
=
an existing Mode C or Mode S transponder.... so can't get visibility

to
ATC=
that way. I can't imagine any glider owner with a transponder in

their
gli=
der who would want to pull it out and replace it with a SkyEcho 2

if that
=
meant losing visibility to ATC... a large part of why they installed

the
tr=
ansponder to start with.

The SkyEcho 2 also won't meet FAA 2020 ADS-B Out

requirements, and
although=
gliders are partially exempt, we still have folks who want to say

overfly
=
Class C airspace (but below 10,000').

It's a little confusing in some many ways the SkyEcho seems more

targeted
a=
t UAVs (or maybe ultralights) but things like UAT In/FIS-B is more

a GA
fea=
ture, so it sure is an intersting product to follow for geeks like me,
but=
kind of wedged into a space between others products, especially

with full
=
Mode S/1090ES Out transponders on one side. We'll see....

Other products with combined ADS-B and FLARM capabilities...

PowerFLARM today does 1090ES In (Direct only, no ADS-R and

TIS-B) and
FLARM=
.. (effectively all PowerFLARM sold in the USA have the 1090ES In

option).=
=20

LXNav PowerMouse is coming, apparently undergoing FCC

approval, with its
A=
DS-B In option it does 1090ES In (but unlike PowerFLARM it

*does* ADS-R
an=
d hopefully TIS-B) and FLARM. (hopefully LXNav will be smart here

and the
P=
owerMouse sold in the USA will all have 1090ES In option).

Other vendors like AirAvionic have new FLARM products with

1090ES In
capabi=
lities coming, I wish they would start describing those product

specs and
c=
apabilities more clearly and ideally clarifying their plans for the

USA
mar=
ket. (their ATD57 display is still great however if anybody wants a
dedicat=
ed FLARM display).

---

Alastair I assume you are in the UK? or elsewhere in Europe. I'm

you not
su=
re why you care about FLARM and the USA with a LXNav 9070, but

if you
real=
ly want to operate in the USA hopefully you have a standard

PowerFLARM
exte=
rnal box (i.e. a model with FCC approval) connected to the 9070.