Juvat wrote:

Ed Rasimus posted:


No. At least as I recall, and posted. There were still F-102s deployed
in '72 when I was back at Korat in the F-4. Danang and Udorn I
believe. But, I've been wrong in the past....

I think you are mistaken, from reading Michel referencing the F-4s
sitting alert at Udorn and flying CAPs on Laos/NVN border. Perhaps he
missed this detail.

In "Clashes" Michel is dealing with MiG engagements, not with air
defense alerts. Clashes has a lot of good research behind it and
Marshall has the experience to back up that of which he writes. But,
even he makes mistakes, such as calling all the ECM pods for the war,
QRC-160.

Certainly there were F-4s on alert at Udorn and absolutely they were
flying CAP, but CAP is a different mission than air defense and alert
can be for a number of mission options--I sat alert at Korat in 105's,
but that was SAR and ground attack alert. And, I sat alert at Korat in
F-4Es, but that also was for ground attack.


According to Pete Stickney's post...
The 64th FIS was inactivated in November '69,
with the 509th FIS once again picking up the Don Muang det. Operations
at Da Nang ended in ealy '70, and the Don Muang det was closed in late
May. On 24 July, 1970, the 509th FIS was inactivated. The 82nd FIS,
which had been at Naha AB, and had been supplying alert dets in Korea,
inactivated in May, 71.

So my question would be...what unit in 1972 since all the PACAF F-102s
were history (so to speak). I suspect that you honestly don't know,
but that may not alter your recollection (right or wrong).

I honestly don't know what unit was deployed, but I'm fairly confident
in the recollection that 102s were still in SEA in '72.

Realistically, the NVAF threat was small, yet, the need for an air
defense response existed and it made more sense to deploy those
specialized aircraft and retain the mission flexibility of other
tactical jets that could also carry iron up N.

Apparently only until Jul 70 for the 509th, and May of 71 for the 82d.

Regarding my reference to CHECO reports...

I'm always bothered by the "historians" and "statisticians" who quote
from CHECO and Red Baron reports.

Hmmm, imagine folks like myself actually believing the contemporaneous
reporting of tactics, trends, and analysis by the likes of Robert
Futrell and Warren Thompson.

I certainly like Thompson. His compilation of history in "To Hanoi and
Back" is excellent. Still, I like to deal with people who actually
flew the missions more than folks who are familiar with the bowels of
the AU library and how to run a micro-fiche machine.

I am certainly a skeptical asshole, looking for mutiple sources.

In a few years this crap will go
unrefuted, but while a few crusty *******s are still alive, we'll
throw a bull-**** flag occasionally.

Fair enough...you tossed out the F-102s still in SEA in 1972. That may
well proved to be a bull-**** flag *or* simply bull-****. Does that
mean we ignore you if you prove to be incorrect on this matter of
fact? Not at all. The problem I found with oral history is the lack of
contemporaneous documentation.

If the IL-28s, parked at Gia Lam were a threat,...

Which would support the reason for having F-102s at TSN and Don
Muang..

The air attack threat was more realistically from a MiG 17 or 21 with
a pair of bombs making a quick dash in-country...

Which explains the Det at Da Nang however long that lasted (1970
according to Stickney's research), and certainly not past Jul 72 when
the 366th TFW moved to Thailand...and Udorn Det whenever it closed.

If the 366th moved out of Danang in July of '72 at the peak of
Linebacker, it's a surprise to me. Of course, I was a member of a
squadron that was deactivated at Korat in September of '72, so it's
possible. There were movements all over the theater at that time,
including the 35th and 67the TFSs coming from Kadena and the entire
354th TFW from CONUS as well as the F-4s from the 4th at S-J. And
don't forget the F-111s and even the 561st WW from George.

What was at Danang then and where did the 366th go in Thailand? Only
the Marine F-4 det?

Udorn still had a full house of F-4s and RFs until I left theater in
July of '73.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (ret)
***"When Thunder Rolled:
*** An F-105 Pilot Over N. Vietnam"
*** from Smithsonian Books
ISBN: 1588341038