On Sep 17, 10:45*am, bildan wrote:
On Sep 16, 8:13*pm, RL wrote:





Our club does a high volume of training and we see the same thing in
terms of Schweizer trained pilots. There is typically a steep remedial
training curve to build the finesse required to fly something as
docile a Grob 103. Our instructors immediately recognize the
Schweitzer induced habits that have to be unlearned.

When this discussion occurs the cost issue always comes up. But
really, what similar sport do you know that trains with antique
equipment. Golf, skiing, boating, and even regular attendance at
sports events are not inexpensive… and neither is soaring. If people/
clubs really want to fly in decent equipment they become creative and
find a way. *My guess is that the perceived low cost of operating
Schewizer equipment probably results in more people leaving the sport
than the assumed high cost of operating good equipment.

Bob

On Sep 15, 11:13*am, Kevin Christner
wrote:

I have spent enough time instructing to see two types of students,
Schweizer trained and everyone else. *Place these two types in an
ASK-21. *Schweizer trained students often lack refined control
coordination and almost always have little ability to control pitch
and speed properly. *The other students seem to do much better. *The
Schweizer simply does not require the refined control of more modern
gliders to be flown in a way that seems coordinated. *Being trained in
a Schweizer typically means you will need to be totally retrained to
fly anything else, and the bad habits first learned will often creep
back.

Find me one world team member that thinks primary training in a
Schweizer is a good idea. *I doubt you'll have any glowing advocates.

KJC

On Sep 15, 7:34*am, Tony wrote:

The 2-33 is suffering the same metal fatigue problems in it's wings as
the L-13.

Is this statement based on actual issues with 2-33 wings or just the
fact that "it is metal, it will fatigue eventually"?

I see no mention in any of the Schweizer Service Bulletins about
issues with 2-22 or 2-33 wing structure and have never heard of any
problems either.

I notice that 3 or 4 of the USA World Team members trained in
Schweizers.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I watched a pilot total a G103. *He bounced on the first contact with
the runway but not so the situation was unrecoverable. *I was close
enough I could see his face as he mentally shifted to landing the 2-33
he was trained in. He wanted down and stopped RIGHT NOW so he tried to
push a non-existent skid into the runway to stop the Grob. *The Grob
responded with its characteristic nose-to-tail PIO bounce and broke
up.

I'd bet if you carefully analyzed every Grob 103 tail boom breaking
accident, in the majority of the cases, you'd find a recently trained
2-33 pilot was at the controls. *When I look at a logbook and see
initial training in a 2-33, I know it's going to take some through
remedial training for a Grob transition.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Where did this guy ever get this dumb idea"???? His problem was not
"training in a 2-33", it was poor, improper training, or bad habit
after training!!!!

This "jam the skid into the ground" deal with the 2-33 is an IMPROPER
LANDING TECHNIQUE......should not be taught, should not be
tolerated........

A 2-33 should be landed just like any other "nose dragger
glider" (G-103 II or ASK 21 etc)

Landing a 2-33, on touch down, the nose should be slightly high, the
tailwheel low, almost toughing the ground, and the touch down on the
main wheel..........the ground roll should be with the nose up, skid
off the ground, rolling on the main wheel, using wheel brake if
required, until the glider is so slow that the nose comes down by
itself.......stick should be way back at this point.......glider
should be nearly stopped before the skid touches the ground.

I see many pilots do what I call "landing in a pile".....they touch
down, and immediately let the stick go forward........jamming the nose
wheel (or skid) onto the ground..........some even push the stick
forward!!! WRONG, WRONG, WRONG!!!!!!............

With a nose dragger glider, the nose wheel is NOT a "landing gear", it
is merely for ground handling and slow taxi....SAME for the skid on a
nose dragger glider.........it is not a "landing" skid, it is just to
support the glider when stationary or during the very beginning of the
take off roll, and the very end of the landing roll. Same for the
nose wheel on a tri gear airplane...........

Bad habits come easily.......in our repair shop, we have had a rash of
airplane repairs where the tricycle gear airplane was landed nose
wheel first.......(or bounced into a nose first landing) resulting in
flatened front wheel, bent landing gear, bent firewall, and sometimes
prop strike and engine rebuild.........I see "wheel barrow " landings
at our field all the time......BAD TECHNIQUE!!!!!

Airplanes, gliders, nose dragger, tri gear, tail dragger, all should
be landed nose up, tail down. Landing loads taken by the main gear,
and pitch control maintained throughout the ground roll.......

So don't blame the 2-33......

Cookie