On Tuesday, 3 October 2017 10:27:54 UTC-6, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
It is really frustrating that for the most part, both the flying and non-flying public/lawmakers/administrators/controllers and even fellow aviators, have little to no understanding of how glider operate and what they can do. During the 18 meter nationals the CD had multiple calls with local Air Force Base, during one such call the CD was asked is the gliders could just stay within 5 miles of Uvalde, and I know the Air Force has gliders.


On Tuesday, October 3, 2017 at 8:04:57 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Tuesday, October 3, 2017 at 9:24:48 AM UTC-4, Tango Eight wrote:
On Monday, October 2, 2017 at 5:13:57 PM UTC-4, mic pilot wrote:
It seems like this incident took place near teddy intersection at approx. 7000 msl? That’s just a really bad place flying if you’re not talking to ATC, with or without a transponder. Teddy is major point on the arrival and anyone that’s flown into ORD has heard of it.
The flight aware track is deceiving because the jet does a few turns over Janesville at 10000msl but that’s not where the conflict took place. It was SE of JVL at 7000msl when the jet had to climb to miss an aircraft.

As glider pilots we really need to know where the jet traffic is and not go there unless you're in contact with ATC. Look up all the major airports you fly near on Airnav.com, read about the runways, and especially the STAR arrivals, also frequencies, and phone numbers are helpful. You can download free copies of the STARS. Knowing what runways they are using based on winds the day of your flight can help.
Then on your flights, if the lift takes you near a busy intersection at the altitude used, call ATC. If you’re well below the traffic, maybe just listen? However, know that if you have a transponder and don’t call, you are causing a lot of chatter on a busy frequency. They will all be trying to figure out what you’re doing.

Hi Mic,

Wellllllll... since a lot of this is all new to me it's a cinch that it's new to many, if not most glider pilots. Never heard of a STAR until this discussion. Didn't know you could get free copies :-).

This would be a good opportunity for some knowledgeable glider + airline pilot or glider pilot + ATC guy to do an article or two. Let me be first to provide such encouragement.

But I really have to wonder about the wisdom of bringing big iron down below 8000 that far out of class B in VFR conditions. Actually, I don't "wonder" at all, I think it's unconscionably stupid. Feel free to give me a reason to change my mind.

best,
Evan Ludeman / T8

At our operation in the Hudson valley of New York we have been dealing with this situation for many years. Heavies come over us at about 7000 feet, sometimes about 6000 feet, more than 40 miles from their destination at Newark.
I recently got a phone call from a man at Boston Center(they control this airspace)in response to a reported conflict in our area between a jet and a glider. Not characterized as a near miss(hit?).
He asked if we know about the jets flying overhead.
I said yes.
I described how we know of them and what we do to avoid conflict.
It turns out that the conflict was near a VOR about 10 miles away and happened on a day we were not flying. We avoid the area of the VOR. I explained this and why.
He then asked how many gliders we would have in the air, stating his assumption that it would be 3 or 4.
When I explained that it could be 5 to 20 at altitudes of surface to the top of the convective layer, and could commonly be 6000 to 7000 feet, he got very quiet.
Next he asked how many had transponders. I told him about 20%.
Response was "Oh".
I asked why they are so low 40 miles out and got no explanation.
The take away for me was:
1)ATC does not know we are there, even though charts depict our activity.
2) They wrongly assume everybody has a transponder.
3)They do not take the time to make themselves aware of avoidable conflict.
4)We have to make ourselves aware of the conflict conditions and avoid those places.
FWIW
UH

Johnathan I hear what you are saying but it is easy for the clubs and contest organizers to reach out and build awareness. Here in Northern Utah we work very close with SLC ATC, the folks at Clover Center for the MOA's and Restricted areas and Denver ATC during the Nephi contests/events.

We make them aware of the events and each day we send tasks sheets and other information to let know where we will be and when. If we are tasking through MOA's the folks at Clover will move activities if there are any. Yes, we check TFR's, NOTAM's and call them first thing in the morning before we decide to task through that area.

The folks at SLC will keep the jets higher for the arrival corridor that passes directly over the area west of the airport and the commonly used for start cylinders.

We have a direct number to ATC to let them know the exact time we start launching and we call them at the end of the contest day. It works well and adds minimal workload for the ground ops person.

The communication goes both ways. During the 2016 Nationals I got a call from ATC to let us know that a NOTAM was just filed for a temporary jump zone at one the airports along the task we had called. We were able to inform the pilots to be aware if they had to use that airport.

Should all be aware of us? Of course but they are not and building the awareness is easy and quite enlightening.

We also make sure they have the link to the SSA tracking site and they have really enjoyed watching along!