Oh boy. I feel obligated to reply, so here goes:

Pac sezs:

Not off topic, the subject is declaring independence from tyranny.

The thread was a loose spun conglomeration of many issues. Freedom from
tyranny is the one you seem to have taken to, in the context of aviation.
OK, I'll keep that in mind.

Freedom to fly is in my mind is a great example of a higher form of
unfettered freedom.

Yes. I used to feel free while riding my motorcycle. Now when I go biking
I feel more free than in a car, but still "glued to the ground" (Dwayne
O'brien reference).

I believe it epitomizes total freedom since it
can always be argued that personal freedom to fly does not benefit the
party or the peasants at large. You gentlemen have eloquently
addressed it with your insightful posts. I very much enjoyed it. The

Thank you for your compliments. However, where are you going with the "does
not benefit..." comment? I don't generally think of my freedom as something
that depends on the relative lack of freedom of others.

only interjection I would like to make is this: I can think of no
other critical thing to fight for in this world than oil. Oil in the
wrong hands provides virtually unlimited funds for WMD development
whether any proof exists or not. The fact that a despot has billions
within his reach and is aggressive is reason enough for me to support
the administration's wag that we should again become global cop yet
again, and crank up the 40-year old B-52's for another possible

IMHO, oil is connected to the decision to war with Iraq precisely for this
reason, and all other reasons pale in comparison. While the North Koreans
starve their people in order to have enough resources to pursue their
weapons programs, despots in control of oil like Saddam have the luxury of
unlimited resources at their disposal. That's what made Saddam so dangerous
if we would have simply rolled over.

military misadventure. Just like real cops, global cop will make
mistakes and innocent people will have their lives ruined. It is
unfortunate fallout of Freedom, but one I soberly accept.


It hurts, but I agree here. A war was necessary to remove Saddam as a
threat, to us, to the region, and to the Iraqi people.

Secondly, I have, like many Americans, felt we should not support
Israel in any shape or form unless they recall the methods they used
to gain a homeland, many many years ago, and agree to give the
Palestinians sovereignty (recognize a Pal. state with hard Pal.

Are you saying that Israel has no right to exist? Not recognizing each
party's right to exist is a fundamental roadblock to peace. What methods
used to gain a homeland are you objecting to? There are a lot of
misconceptions about the way Israel was settled and became a state, and who
was displaced on the Arab side. I won't try to explain all of my views
about this right here, but if you want to know more about my understanding
of history, check this site out: http://www.eretzyisroel.org


borders.) If Sharrone and his party refuse and he "is pushed into the
sea," so be it.

Whoa! Hold on. First of all, this shows me that you're not trying to
understand the complexities of the situation nor empathise with both sides.
You are seem to be saying that you're willing to damn Israelis to a death
sentence. This attitude is dispicable, and I hope that you would be willing
to study the situation more, gain an understanding of both people, try to
balance your beliefs and change your mind. Kill 'em all is not an option -
morally or pragmatically, for either side. Please see that.

This is a different world now, that we have been
dragged into. As more and more members of the nuclear club pop up,
hard-liner positions, if allowed to stalemate any real resolution, are
going to sooner or later end in the unthinkable. Small tac nukes
exist, the rusting iron curtain remnants are penniless... individual
underworld figures will not loose any sleep over an immoral sale ...
You connect the dots. Prior to 911 you would be laughed out of any
security meeting if you had suggested that box-cutters would bring
down some of our greatest icons.

But then again what do I know? I'm just a Yankee Doodle Dandy that
does not allow the liberal media to tell me what to think.

Pacpyer
Desert Shield/Desert Storm CATAF

Pac, yes this is a dangerous world we are living in. America suddenly found
out it has enemies with surprising strength on 9/11, and its administration
is doing what it thinks is most prudent given their understanding, knowledge
and capabilities. Whatever you think of the current administration and its
actions, we are lucky to be living in a country like the United States, with
freedom of speech, freedom of the press, and the freedom to vote. It's not
a perfect system, but it's the best thing out there. If you're not happy,
be loud about it. Have conversations about the issues. Try to influence
people. Vote.

But please, please, please, educate yourself - don't indoctorinate yourself.
This means being skeptical and trying to see things from different
perspectives. You can do this by exposing yourself to a variety of
different media outlets, personal research, and best of all, travelling and
speaking with people of different opinions. This ties back to aviation
beautifully - nothing else has connected people globally as much as the
invention of the airplane, and by conquering geography, nothing else has the
potential to foster more understanding. We just need to fly more :-)

Blue Skies,
Aviv