Peter Duniho wrote:
"Anto=F1io" wrote in message
oups.com...
[...]
Unless one turns a fairly close in base here--within about a half mile
or less--you end up in class B surface.

IMHO, that's incorrect. It's true that if you are flying a very wide
downwind, you can clip the area of the Class B airspace that extends to t=
he
surface. But provided you are flying the downwind where you're supposed
to -- over the Duwamish River -- you can fly straight out the valley as f=
ar
as you like without running into the Class B.

Not sure where the Duwamish is however, looking at the Seattle
terminal, it appears you'd have to be wingtip to wingtip on the
downwind with those on final if you are to avoid class B to the south.

I see a highway there that seems to just barely stay outside of B. I
will look for it next time.

1.Assuming I busted B; who is reponsible if the controller asks me to
follow an aircraft that is too far out on a straight in? I mean, I can
reduce speed, s-turn, and the like but I can't turn base until the
aircraft on final is a safe distance away, right?

Assuming you busted the Class B, you are responsible. The only thing that
the tower controller does is grant you use of the runway. They don't have
the authority to clear you into the Class B, and it's your responsibility=
to
say "unable" if you're given an instruction with which you can't comply (=
for
whatever reason, including regulatory).

So the fact that I was under ATC instruction does not give me the
clearance?
Can you quote me a reg that backs up your statement about "...whatever
reason, including regulatory" ?

2.Is the controller supposed to arrange things so that I *can* turn
base and not be in conflict with other aircraft?


The controllers is supposed to arrange things so that you don't wind up on
the same part of the runway at the same time as someone else. That's all.
They may try to assist with other issues, but ultimately those are all up=
to
you.

Well, that's one of my points. The controller left me with two options:

1=2E Go into class B
2=2E Turn my base early and cause a conflict

Keep in mind that I have not at all decided yet if I was wrong or right
in my actions. I am simply laying out the facts as I saw them unfold.

3.How would you resolve the problem if it were happening to you ?

That said, let's assume that at Boeing Field, the Class B down to the
surface actually does extend all the way up to, but not including, the fi=
nal
approach course (it must not go over the final approach course, since then
no straight-in approach would be allowed, except by aircraft who already
have clearance through the Class B). Let's further assume that you need =
to
turn base before 1/2 mile past the "abeam the numbers" point.

Then your only available option is to not fly more than 1/2 mile past whe=
re
you are abeam the numbers. This may require S-turns, to give the
straight-in traffic more time. This may require making a 360 degree turn.
You could possibly turn upwind and try again, hoping that no more
straight-in traffic will show up. There are a variety of ways to solve t=
he
problem. But you would have to solve it...flying into the Class B airspa=
ce
without a clearance isn't an option.

Whoa! You think flying a 360 in the pattern, or turning upwind (which
means you'd have to cross over?) are better solutions than clipping the
corner of B?

Fortunately, this is all moot. It is entirely possible to extend one's
downwind at Boeing Field without flying into the Class B airspace,

Not very far !

the only thing you really need to do is make sure you are far enough east=
to
avoid the Class B (and far enough west to avoid conflict with straight-in
traffic). It's tighter than you usually find, but it's definitely doable.

It is "doable" only if you wish to be wingtip to wingtip with an MD80
or an L1011 in a C172.



For what it's worth, I have found that the easiest way to ensure you're in
the right spot is to fly directly over the Duwamish, and then aim for the
small hill just to the south of the runway. As long as your downwind tak=
es
you just west of that hill, you'll stay clear of both the Class B and the
final approach course. Alternatively, stay over or east of Route 99, and
that will accomplish the same thing. I prefer the topographic landmarks,
because they are easier to see than picking out which roadway is which, b=
ut
99 ought to be pretty prominent too.

Ahhh...good points Pete. Thanks!!

Antonio