On Tue, 15 Jan 2008 11:19:17 -0800 (PST), "Robert M. Gary"
wrote:

On Jan 15, 11:15*am, kontiki wrote:
Robert M. Gary wrote:

Yea, we teach (or are suppose to teach) IFR pilots not to do that. Its
not very helpful for the intended purpose (to let everyone know where
you are).

-Robert, CFII

Flight instructors should at least tell their students
about what IFR fixes are and where they are (at that airport).
Its not rocket science and it will help the student in the long run.

That would require students to purchase IFR charts for every airport
they visit. They would not only need approach charts but enroutes as

And at that level they's still have no idea where we were. They are
happy to know where they are which is as it should be. There should be
no need to make the primary training more difficult with learning
additional terms and the equivalent of additional patterns. They have
plenty of items to deal with as it is.


well. Its much simplier to just tell the IFR pilots that they need to
use VFR friendly phrasing. Instead of saying "I'm at FOOBAR" they
could just say "I'm 5 miles out on the the ILS straight in runway 12".
Its not very hard.

If the conditions are VFR it's expected that we identify in plain
language. IOW If I'm at HARPY on the VOR-A into 3BS I'd identify as
Barstow traffic, Thirty Three Romeo, 5 West North West at 1100 on the
VOR-A. Even if the VFR pilot has no idea what the VOR-A is, they do
know what 5 WNW at 1100 means. It also tells them I'm coming into the
airport at about half the pattern altitude they are flying.

It doesn't bother me to see a 310 come screaming in at 500 AGL while
I'm flying the pattern at a 1000, but it certainly would unnerve a
student and probably any other pilot who is not used to seeing it as
well.

If the student and VFR pilots had to be familiar with all the
approaches at out little airport it would be a challenge and this is
just a little airport. We have runways 18/36 as well as 06/24. The
VOR approach is on the 317 radial out of MBS meaning the VOR approach
comes in from the WNW, aligns with nothing on the airport, and it
typically ends with a "circle-to-land" at 500 AGL. Then we have the
GPS approaches to both 06 and 24. They are straight in from about 7
miles out. IOW to VFR traffic they are straight in. Mix learning the
straight ins with the VOR and the circle to land and we'd have no low
time pilots in the pattern.

Normally it's not all that busy and you can fly any of the approaches
with the published missed, but on a busy day those on the VOR break
off before tangling with the down wind traffic for 06 even if they are
using 24 if for no other reason than to avoid rattling students.
The straight ins to 06 and 24 have to watch for base traffic and
*normally* announce often enough to know just where they are.
(There are always exceptions)

Me? When VFR knowing where I am, where they are, and what they are
flying lets me know if I can land or need to extend my down wind and
follow the traffic flying the approach. The student and low time
pilot doesn't normally have this capability nor should they be
expected to. So if I were on the GPS 06 I'd identify my position in
reference to the runway and watch for VFR traffic. If I see, or hear
some one on down wind, I'm going to be extra alert for the possibility
of breaking off and joining the pattern

Yes, I could declare being on final as by the time I'm half way to the
airport from the final approach fix I'm within the distance many fly
VFR patterns. Why they insist on using a pattern large enough a 737
could probably fly it I don't know. To me a VFR pattern has base
between a half to three quarters of a mile out and I'm flying high
performance. BTW we have a pilot who flys a 310 and his VFR patterns
are only *slightly* larger than mine. HOWEVER declaiming final does
two things. It is likely to confuse students who are used to, or are
learning to always do things the same and this would interrupt that.
Then there is always the guy who never progressed beyond that point
and is always going to fly the pattern the same no matter what you
say. With that one you see the conflict coming, break off and hope he
never flys into AirVenture.
So, IF I can fit I'll land straight in on the approach, but always
plan it so I can brake off and avoid conflicts.

When it gets exciting is when you discover some one flying those big
patterns just under the ceiling, or you do the step down to find a
windshield full of some one scud running.

BTW we have one pilot who flys such large patterns that on several
occasions pilots in the pattern have mistakenly assumed he was headed
elsewhere. One day he got all bent out of shape because an ultra light
landed ahead of him and he had to go around. I even though he was
headed for MBS.

Roger (K8RI)

-Robert, CFII