Sorry Bill, the ATC world is not specialised, it just
teaches people the basics, enough to fly solo, that
is all it sets out to do and it achieves it with the
Grob Acro. My point was that it is no more difficult
to be taught to fly in an Acro than it is in a K13.
The Acro is nearer to most GRP single seaters which
your soaring members will fly.

One question, as an instructor you are given the choice
between sitting for 8 hours in the back seat of a K13
or a Grob Acro. Which would you choose, for me there
is no contest, sitting for any length of time in the
K13 would require a large spend on an osteopath.

The question was not about a fleet but which was more
suitable for a clubs only 2 seater. For my money, and
I have flown most the Acro is the most suitable.

I learned to fly in a T31 and instucted in them for
many years, I would not recommend them for training
today.

As an aside the best and most effective 'glider' I
have flown for teaching is without doubt the Venture,
so I am not against wood or metal and fabric per se.
Of course the CAA rules do not allow their use in that
way in the wider world.

DJ 401

At 14:48 28 April 2004, W.J. \bill\ Dean \u.K.\. wrote:
It may well be that in the rather specialised world
of the Air Training
Corps the Grob Viking does a good job for your pupils
aged under 21. Of
the over 100 pupils you solo'd in the Grob, how many
went on to get their
Silver 'C'?

However, Lasham has had in their fleet a K21 and a
Grob, in fact I think
they have had two successive Grobs. Nevertheless,
Lasham still continue to
use the K13 as their main training glider, they have
no plans to replace
them and are re-furbishing them. They currently have
1 Duo-Discus, 1
ASK21, 1 Grob Acro and 9 K13s. They have paid a deposit
on a DG1000, this
is not to replace a K13, they are thinking of changing
the order to a turbo
DG1000. Lasham have operated the K21, the Grob and
the K13s quite long
enough to evaluate them as training machines, and from
the maintenance point
of view.

Lasham not only sends pupils solo, they also teach
them to soar, fly
cross-country and win competitions at world level so
they must be doing
something right!

W.J. (Bill) Dean (U.K.).
Remove 'ic' to reply.


'Don Johnstone' wrote in
message ...

The original post was asking for an opinion on the
relative suitability of a Grob Acro versus a K13 from
someone with experience. I would have thought that
was sensible. Whether it was sensible to seek that
on ras is perhaps open to debate.

To answer the original question, as always it depends.
I have instructed extensively on both with over 2500
launches in a Grob Acro and sending over 100 students
under the age of 21 solo in it. It is probably one
of the best ab initio training gliders I have even
flown. Its main rival, the ASK21 is, like all Scheicher
gliders, better harmonised and probably slightly easier
to teach in, however the Grob is far more robust.
(I
have never seen the disappearing nosewheel syndrome
in a Grob).

If you just want to teach people to fly solo and not
go off soaring then either glider will do. If however
you want to teach beyond that the Grob is the proper
option. If you are teaching people and are expecting
them to go straight into a GRP glider as their first
single seat machine then the Grob is the best option.
If you want to reduce your long term maintenance costs
then the Grob is the best option (You don't have to
recover a Grob every few years, and the gelcoat is
almost bomb proof). If you want to reduce your insurance
bill then the K13 may be the way to go. If you want
a much wider and larger cockpit loading option then
the Grob is the answer.

In my opinion there really is no contest. The K13
was
a fine glider, in it's day, and still is in some ways
but for overall robustness, suitability for training
for GRP flying, and the ability to provide realistic
xcountry training it has had it's day. The Grob
is
the best option even if you have to find a trailer
for it.