Alan Minyard wrote:

On Sun, 06 Jul 2003 13:27:02 -0400, Cecil Turner
wrote:

BUFDRVR wrote:

Those who expose themselves to enemy fire
do not have the same regard for those who don't.

Hogwash! I've got several friends who have missed (just due to poor timing and
luck) DESERT STORM, ALLIED FORCE, ENDURING FREEDOM and IRAQI FREEDOM and I hold
them in the same regard as I do those that saw action. In fact, many of those
that have missed out I hold in higher regard then many of the crewmembers who
have logged combat time.

You don't have a special affection for the crew(s) with which you flew in combat? If
not, I believe you are in the decided minority. And the historical and literary
references abound (e.g., "Scots who have with Wallace bled," "And gentlemen in England
now abed . . .") Keegan wrote an entire book on it (though I can't recall the title,
and frankly didn't care for it much). I wouldn't throw it into others' faces, but
denying the phenomenon exists is, IMO, unsupportable.

BTW, it's nice to see someone can strongly disagree without being disagreeable.

rgds,
KTF

Many of the most dangerous missions occurred during the build up to
ODS, by units which have never been and probably never will be
acknowledged. I was there during Earnest Will, and I know of what I
speak. What about the Scots who bled before/after the "battle"?

Al Minyard

Don't know much about casualties in Earnest Will or the buildup to ODS, but I suspect
the front line combat units had comparable risk. But again, the point is that the
shared risk perception exists, not that it makes a lot of sense. In some of its least
sensible forms, infantrymen will claim pride of place over airmen, who historically have
much higher casualties (in most conflicts, obvious exceptions exist). USMC leadership
seminars belabor the point to death (and as a bonus you can usually find a couple of
guys who can quote the whole Agincourt speech by heart) while discussing how to use it
to build camaraderie. Or how personnel policies (e.g., individual rotation) can destroy
it.

rgds,
KTF

"Whether it was the oneness of man and acrobatic flying machine, whether it was the
equally shared risk of officer pilot and enlisted crew member, whatever the reason, the
men of the helicopters kept their discipline and their spirit. As the French
parachutists became the paladins of that earlier war, so the U.S. Army aviators became
the dark knights of this one."
From: A Bright Shining Lie by Neil Sheehan