Am 11.10.2010 22:55, Darryl Ramm wrote:
On Oct 11, 12:22 pm, Peter
wrote:
Am 11.10.2010 20:17, kd6veb wrote:

Hi Gang
I think this is scary and morally unjustified. How could 2 gliders
be so close to an airport approach and not have operating transponders
turned on? There has been much discussion of Flarm recently and maybe
Flarm would be a useful device for all to have in glider competitions
but Flarm is useless for GA. I guess it is going to take a midair
between a glider and a commercial airliner and the subsequent death of
a couple of hundred people before reason is applied and transponders
mandated within 50 or so miles from all commercial airports.
Transponders are so cheap ($2500) and can easily be installed in any
glider (Don't give me any crap on that. I installed one on my
ultralight glider the SparrowHawk.) as to be something well past
discussion. I tried to push this concept of mandatory transponder
usage within 50 miles of a commercial airport with Pasco a couple of
years ago without success after the Minden midair collision between a
business jet and a glider which had its transponder turned off. So I
guess it is going to have to take a bad accident to make it happen.
Dave

On Oct 11, 9:54 am, wrote:
Lessons to be learned?

http://avherald.com/h?article=4320f1c2

Join the discussion.

I happen to fly a lot in this area and know the situation quite well. A
few things should be explained to perhaps better understand the incident
report.

1. The Airport Frankfurt-Hahn is surrounded by a CTR (0/3500, Class D)
and two larger class D airspaces (3500/FL65 and 4500/FL65). Above FL65
and surounding the Class D airspace is a Class E airspace (1000 or
1700AGL/FL100)

2. All glider pilots flying in that area (regularily a few hundred) are
aware of the fact that they share the airspace with other commercial
(heavy) traffic. On the other hand, we have operate there, because there
are only small corridors left between Class C and D airspaces
sourrounding Frankurt-Main International, Frankfurt HAhn and Cologne
airports. Also this area is a thermally high active area (Hunsrück
ridge) and many XC flights go along there.

3. There are regular talks with the DFS (German ATC organisation) about
the traffic situation in that area and how things can be handled so that
safe operation of both the commercial flights and the glider operations
can be carried out. These talks have led to the installation of several
Glider sectors in the north and south corners within the Frankfurt-Hahn
Class D airspace. These sectors can be opened generally in cooperation
with Frankfurt-Hahn ATC and FIS if and when traffic permits this, and
are normaly managed by the local glider clubs. Also the situatuion of
approaching traffic to Frankfurt Hahn has been and will be discussed.

4. Apart from that glider pilots can request individual clearances from
FIS (e.g. during the week) for crossing of certain areas in the Class D
airspace.This is normally granted, if and when traffic permits this.
Normlly, there is no transponder needed for this clearance, just radion
contact with FIS will normally suffice.

5. There is NO transponder mandatory zone in that area, also no
transponder mandatory above 5000 ft for gliders in Airspace Class E!

6. It has been noted in the last few years, as the operations of Ryan
Air increased in Germany, that there have been several incidents reports
like the one mentioned, especially from that specific carrier. We (the
glider community) suspect that Ryan Air tries to get more "protected"
airspace by blaming the gliders operating in their vinciity, althouh
those glider pilots behave totally legal.

7. Nevertheless a glider pilot operating near Frankfurt Hahn is strongly
advised (and I do this myself regularily) to inform FIS via radio
contact of his presence in taht area, so that traffic information can be
passed on the the approaching traffic.

In conclusion: We (the XC glider pilots) are aware of the situation and
operate accordingly. We expect the same of the commercial traffic using
the Class E airspace, where also for IFR traffic the rule "see and be
seen" is to obey.

--
Peter Scholz
ASW24 JE

Of all the very well laid out points above (including the critical
point of working with the local ATC organizations) I would have hoped
to see a point about about glider pilots being "strongly advised" to
adopt transponders.

Unfortunately "see and avoid" alone as a traffic separation mechanism
between gliders and fast-jets/airliners ultimately comes down to
wishful thinking. Eventually the idea that see and avoid alone is
going to prevent a collision between airliners/fast jets and gliders
is going to just fail. And putting aside the little point of moral
responsibility to the airline passengers, what does the glider
community think is going to happen to soaring in their country/region
when an airliner does collide with a non-transponder equipped glider?

And this should not be a surprise to any of us. Gliders are just
exceedingly hard to see and airliner cockpits are very busy places.
The two just do not mix well.


Darryl

Darryl,

in Germany, for many years because of the pure separation of commercial
traffic and gliders by the different airspace they use, there was no
need for transponders in gliders.

In the last years, this has changed a bit, as more and more airports are
beeing used by commercial carriers that serve the German market on top
of the traditional "state airline" Lufthansa, and more and more
restricted airspaces appear on the maps. You see more transponders in
gliders now, and there are talks about making them mandatory.

In fact, the Netherlands have tried to do this, but have after a few
weeks asked the glider pilots to switch them off again near some major
airports, because ATC just had a black cloud on there radar screens...

But ambitioned XC pilots have more possibilities with transponders,
because it is possible to get clearances for airspace that otherwise
would not be usable by a glider, so if you have the money and the
ambition, you'll get a transponder sooner or later.

I think it will take some more years to make it common for XC flights,,
but we try to avoid to make it mandatory, as it would make the
traditional glider instruction in clubs a lot more expensive, many clubs
wouldnT survive this. It's not only € 2000 for the transpionder itself,
you have to get it installed and certified for each glider. This would
exceed the value of many gliders used in training nowadays.

--
Peter Scholz
ASW24 JE