"Venik" wrote in message
...
Any argument with you seems to inevitably lead to you trying to shift
the discussion away from the SR-71 and to the Iran-Iraq war. I
understand that this is one area that you probably read something about,
but it's just not relevant in this situation. You are asking me about
dates and pilots of the lost Iraqi MiG-25s - what does this have
anything to do with the retirement of the SR-71?
For third time. this has to do with the cancellation of MiG-25 development,
caused due to the loss of Soviet-flown MiG-25BMs being shot down over Iran
in November 1987. Repeat: a loss of a Soviet-flown MiG-25BM. In combat.
Against Iranian F-14s. Something that never happened to any USAF SR-71.
This means that it was the Soviets who have changed their planing and
behaviour in regards of MiG-25s due to F-14s. It was not so that the USA
have changed their planing and behaviour in regards of SR-71s because of
MiG-25s or MiG-31s - as you explained above but are completely unable to
provide any kind of evidence for. Capice?
Namely, Venik, you stated:
There've been entire books written on the impact of the MiG-31 on the US
planning.
And, consequently, I'm asking now for the 5th time: can you finally say what
books? Can you say the title, author, publisher, ISBN of such books?
Your questions are
totally irrelevant and so are your arguments.
Why are my questions irrelevant? You said there are "entire books written on
the impact of the MiG-31 on the US planning. I'm asking you: which books?
Can you name even a single one or not?
Your claims of Iraqi
MiG-25 are simply absurd for one simple reason: Iraq never so many
Foxbats to begin with. It's a well-known fact that Iraq only purchased
20 of these aircraft.
Where is this a "well-known fact"? What is your source for this? Can you
name a book, article, official document that would confirm your figures?
Then, you were explaining about how many IrAF MiG-25s were lost in 1980s: 3.
And, you said this is "well documented". I said OK. No problem. Just, can
you provide evidence of how "well documented" these losses are? If they are
so "well documented", then explain me when was that one lost to an Iranian
SAM and where? How about date and place? Who was the pilot? From which unit
was he? Can you provide a picture of the plane or wreckage? Where and when
was one lost "due to uncontained engine failure"? Who was the pilot of that
plane? Can you provide a picture of that plane or its wreckage?Where and
when was "another one lost on landing during a test flight"?
You talk about some documents stating that Iraq
had 30 MiG-25s left. Let's see them.
Following is the excerpt from the USN document titled "Speartip 014-90" the
title-page and the relevant page I have just e-mailed to you, discussing the
number of MiG-25PDs - repeat: MiG-25PDs (i.e. if you can, note the stress on
INTERCEPTORS, not on a combination of recce and interceptor variants) - as
available in 1991:
_
4. (S/NF/WN) - AIRCRAFT-SPECIFIC ISSUES. THOUGH THE IRAQI AIR FORCE IS LARGE
IN NUMERS, ITS FRENCH AND SOVIET BUILT FIGHTER/INTERCEPTOR FORCE COMPRISES
LESS THAN HALF THIS SUM. THIS FORCE IS BROKE DOWN INTO ALL-WX/VFR CAPABLE
AIRCRAFT AS FOLLOWS:
....
MiG-25 FOXBAT A/E 22
....
Speartip 014-90 was an official document, issued to brief USN commanders
going to a war against Iraq. So, except you're now going to explain us that
ONI was _lying_ to its own people, there were obviously at least 22
MiG-25PD(e)/PDS' - i.e. INTERCEPTOR FOXBATS - in service with the IrAF in
1991. That's a figure that is not including the number of
MiG-25R/RB/BT/RBSHs and MiG-25PUs supplied to Iraq.
Now, you stated above that Iraq "only purchased 20 of these aircraft".
Specifically, you stated that (citate from one of your posts above), "It's a
well-documented fact that Iraq acquired only 12 MiG-25PDs". How do you
explain this discrepancy?
How comes there is a disparity in the figures you provide and what the US
Navy Intelligence was explaining to USN pilots going to a war? Would you
perhaps like to explain us that the ONI was babbling nosence and its
arguments were "irrelevant"?
Oh, and BTW, can you provide any kind of document that would confirm your
statement that the Soviets have supplied only 20 Foxbats of all versions to
Iraq?
Where are the photos of these MiGs?
Surely by now the US troops found all of them.
This was the worst question you could have asked, then there are meanwhile
really a lot of photos of Iraqi MiG-25s found and captured last year. In
fact, the US DoD and private websites of US vets who were in Iraq last and
this year have so far released photographs of no less but 15 different
MiG-25PD(e)/PDS' found in Iraq last year. These are obviously the survivors
of the 22 mentioned in the Speartip 014-90. To make matters really bitter
for you, Venik, however, there are also plenty of photos of Iraqi
MiG-25R/RBs and MiG-25PUs, including:
MiG-25R/RB etc.
- 25105
- 25106
- 25107
- 25108
MiG-25PU
- 25xxx (the one photographed with Australian SAS)
So, if you now calculate what the Speartip above mentioned, namely that
there were 22 MiG-25PD(e) and MiG-25PDS in Iraq in 1991, and add the
MiG-25R/RBs and PUs the serials of which I mentioned above, and ignore all
the Foxbats destroyed on the ground in 1991 and 2003, as well as those shot
down in air combats in 1991 and 1992, as well as the fact that the serials
of examples captured in Iraq last year obviously indicate that there were
even more R/RBs in Iraq, you come out with a total of (at least) 27 MiG-25s
of all versions in Iraq in 1991.
Remember: You said that "it's a well-known fact that Iraq only purchased 20
of these aircraft".
Photographic and intelligence documentation indicate there were at least 27
of Foxbats in Iraq in 1991, and this figure excludes three examples shot
down in air combats in 1991 and 1992, and two destroyed on the ground in
1991. Plus, this figure excludes the three examples you say were lost during
the war with Iran.
With other words, Venik, this would mean that Iraq purchased (at least) 35
MiG-25s, and that your data is completely wrong. How do you explain this?
BTW, your account on unaswered questions is permanently increasing.
Meanwhile, it looks as follows:
- I asked why don't you explain about the impact of (extremely negative)
experiences from the testing of Soviet equipment in Iran-Iraq War, which was
_indeed_ highly influential for (the end of) development of MiG-25?
- I asked, could you now explain us how many SR-71s were shot down in
something like 4.000 SAM-firings against them?
- If there is no "verifiable" MiG-25-kill scored by IRIAF F-14s against IrAF
and Soviet MiG-25s during that war, then, please be so kind to explain:
- why are there pictures of MiG-25-wreckage (like on p.64 of "Iranian F-14
Units in Combat", just for example)?
- why are there ex-IrAF MiG-25 pilots who confirm a loss of at least two
dozens of Iraqi and Soviet Foxbats to Iranian F-14s?
- why do the US intel documents one can get via FOIA procedures confirming
Iranian and Iraqi documents, pilot- and eyewitness-accounts?
I told you I have no problem with your explaining my books for "lots of
baloney", nor stating I'm "thinking stuff up". But, you still have not
answered what is the "evidence" for all these "successful" interceptions of
SR-71s by Soviet fighters you're talking about (see your previous posts in
this thread)? Can you provide any gun-camera pictures or radar bands, or
point at any kind of a source that could?
- Why do the US and Soviet documents agree with each other that over 60
MiG-25s were delivered to Iraq between 1980 and 1989, but barely 30 remained
operational by 1991?
- Can you name a single book that would explain the impact of MiG-31 on the
US planning?
- Would you be so kind to tell us why were all the orders for IFR-equipped
MiG-25s for Libya, Syria and Iraq cancelled in late 1987/1988?
You furthermore stated,
And, of
course, three Iraqi MiG-25s were lost during the PGW - two P-types were
downed by a pair of F-15Cs on the 19th and one more - by a pair of F-16s
on the 25th.
In response to which I asked, which IrAF MiG-25s were shot down by F-16s in
1991? Which F-16-pilots scored these kills and with which weapons?
Finally, are you able to offer a reasonable answer to even a single one of
these questions, or do you prefer to show us how much you like to "think
stuffs up" by ignoring them?
--
Tom Cooper
Freelance Aviation Journalist & Historian
Vienna, Austria
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Author:
Iran-Iraq War in the Air, 1980-1988:
http://www.acig.org/pg1/content.php
Iranian F-14 Tomcat Units in Combat
http://www.ospreypublishing.com/titl...hp/title=S7875
Iranian F-4 Phantom II Units in Combat
http://www.ospreypublishing.com/titl...hp/title=S6585
African MiGs
http://www.acig.org/afmig/
Arab MiG-19 & MiG-21 Units in Combat
http://www.ospreypublishing.com/titl...=S6550~ser=COM
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