In article ,
Mark Hansen wrote:

On 10/6/2005 08:23, Ron Garret wrote:

In article ,
Ron Rosenfeld wrote:

OK, so say you're flying AVX V21 SLI FUL. Fullerton ATIS says the VOR-A
is in use. Then you lose comm. What would you do and why?


Being more familiar with Jepp charts, and having to rely on NACO charts for
that approach, perhaps I am missing some subtlety.

But assuming a non-emergency situation, not getting into the discussion of
what to do at SLI if you're ahead of your ETA, and also assuming IMC, I
would maintain the V21 MEA of 4000' until reaching SLI. At SLI I would
execute a racetrack type procedure turn on the SE side of the final
approach course, descending to 2600'. Passing SLI inbound I would cross
BWALT at or above 1500' and then continue my descent to the MDA and land if
I met the requirements of 91.175 and the runway were clear.

As to why? I would do that because that's how that SIAP is charted

No, it isn't. There is no "racetrack type procedure turn" on the chart.
There is a hold that is part of the missed approach. And if you fly
that hold so as to end up at SLI inbound then you've flown it in the
wrong direction.

I think Ron said he wasn't as familiar with the government charts.

There are two Rons in play here :-) Ron G. (that's me) is looking at a
government chart.

However, if you look at the chart, the procedure turn is indicated
with the Barb, pointing 155 degrees. You can see, also, that if you
use AIBAS IAF, no procedure turn is necessary.

True, but you're not coming from ALBAS. You're coming in on V21. (As
an aside, doesn't it make intuitive sense that, from a TERPS point of
view, if no procedure turn is required from ALBAS that none should be
required coming from V21?)

When you hit the VOR, you turn outbound for the procedure turn, 200
degrees. During the outbound leg (and the procedure turn) you can
begin your descent to 2600'. You should time it such that you are
at 2600' before you get back to the VOR.

Note that you need to remain within 10NM of the VOR during the turn,
so you can go outbound quite a log way (to aid in the descent) before
actually beginning the physical turn.

I presume you mean turn to a 200 heading, not turn 200 degrees. V21 is
on a 202 heading. You would be turning 178 degrees or 182 degrees
depending on which way you made the turn. Now...

Do you really turn to a 200 heading, or do you turn to intercept the SLI
200 radial? Those are not the same maneuver.

Do you turn left or right and why?

At what point are you "established on the outbound leg", when you reach
a 200 heading, or when you are established on the SLI 200 radial?

Finally, suppose you flew this Byzantine procedure... by the time you
got to the actual procedure turn (which, I note in passing, would be
your SECOND course reversal) you would be in almost exactly the same
spot as you were just minutes ago when you were on V21. Why is it safe
to descend now but not then?

rg