warning, LONG, I'd gone private but no email address was given

John Doe, (from the band X?, cool)
I doubt you're a troll, I'm sure someone though will post the definition of
one to prove otherwise, so, don't do a hit-and-run and answer the endless
responses that'll surely come your way. Heck, I could be called a troll
on the aerobatics/misc groups as I've never been there, but since this
is crossposting to those (sorry guys, didnt notice at first), I guess I've
been there now.

"Kooks" is on the mark for describing some of these people, and we have
some of our own. I was just talking to my flying partner and he pointed
out there are alot of pilots out there doing harm to those of us that want
to do our thing with minimal impact to anyone. But when I hear of these
'kooks' that dont even 'approve' of US, that we should be done away with
as well, I'd hope you agree that just isn't right.

Since you introduced yourself, so will I. I also am an American homeowner,
I have taken on a live-and-let live relationship with my neighbors
constantly barking dog. I was here first, and no, I havent gone out and
got a louder dog. I live near a practice area, rarely are there aerobatics,
just
your normal steep turns and stalls. I used to live under base-to-final and
under a skydiving drop zone. The street behind us wasn't too busy when
we moved in, that's changed. Could I've turned into a 'kook' over all those
things? Guess it depends on your personality type.

About airplane noise in particular, just so you know where I'm coming from:
I own a 182, and although I don't do aerobatics, I'll defend their right to
exist as much as any other aviation activity that is currently legal, I hate
discrimination. Our local city government has in one form or another tried
to get rid of various types of aviation activities. They tried to move the
traffic pattern over a heavily congested area so as to substantially
increase
complaints and hopefully eventually close down the airport. I spent alot
of time canvassing those areas, hundreds of homes, with fliers, and speaking
to many of those homeowners. Most were not pilots, were friendly, not
terribly interested in the issue until they were told their elected
officials
had plans for them without asking them. Through exposing them publicly,
we won. By we I don't mean just pilots either. Why would they do this,
besides wanting to shut down the airport? A wealthy landowner with
some attorneys, a real kook who threatened to shoot down pilots and
come after them at the local FBO. That's how some 'kooks' end up, watch
out for some of your members.

I've heard of the pilots who go and pour salt on the people that complain,
it's not hard to do and stay within the regs. It doesn't benefit either
side
though, and dont say the anti-aviation types don't do the same thing. Just
so you know I'm not just a pro-aviation blowhard, I've discussed the
issue with some of the anti-aviation people at city council chambers,
airport advisory board meetings, other meetings to bring both sides
together,
and have been asked by the city to be a mediator. I've mostly learned
there are some people that can't be reasoned with and when the red mist
comes down into their eyes there's no dealing with them. Many we had
good dialogues with, and no I don't offer flights in my airplane to sway
them over to our side, I don't care if they ever fly. I mostly ask what
could we do, short of not fly at all, to improve the situation. I also
explain that the City is often responsible for forcing us to fly where
we do, and that most of us want to leave the smallest noise footprint
as possible and keep it near the airport. Having enemies as neighbors,
many fairly wealthy, does not do us any good.

After securing some goodwill with the neighbors, and many of them said
they were happy with the pilot/user designed noise abatement procedure,
the city then wanted to move the pattern to the opposite side of the
airport over even more houses than the other proposal. Instead of
hundreds of homes, thousands of them. Just so you know the crap we
have to put up with, too. I'm sure there are other pilots that read these
groups that have had to fight governments and groups that are trying
to make the noise situation worse for their own ends. So, yeah, I have
a problem when the anti-aviation group thinking all we do is fight for
our right to make noise. Mostly, for me anyway, it's a fight to not be
noticed. I don't want you to know I'm up there, I dont want to hear you
complaining about me.

Mostly it's an education thing, on both sides. There is a proposal for
an aerobatics box in the local area. The local FSDO is getting heat
for not publicizing it to the people who live in that area. The paper
then runs a few letters and an editorial about it, and gets some facts
wrong (where it is, a better place for it to be, etc). At risk of some
'kook's getting in on the fight, I posted the information, with corrections,
on my site, which is bookmarked by the anti-aviation folks here in
town, don't worry about it. I've even had pro-aviation people have
a problem with me basically inviting the opposition into the issue,
as if they'd not figured it out later when traffic or aerobatics
multiplied over their heads. I guess I just don't view them as the
'opposition' as I spend 99% of my life on the ground, contrary to
what many might believe.

Groups like STN are just troublemakers that have found a new target,
dont kid yourself. Aviation has to defend itself against nuts like this
all over the country, and many do it in the way I've described above.
Not heavy handed, but trying to peacefully coexist. You sound like
a reasonable person, are you going to align yourself with STN and
their way of operating, or be a little more reasonable? When you
organize, that's what you need to decide. Unfortunately we cannot
'ignore the kooks' like you said. And even when we do 'behave',
which many kooks say we arent even capable of, we get threatened.
I do believe a constructive dialogue is possible, I've seen it and
have done it. But theres always that dangerous fringe with blood
in their eyes, you can spot em a mile away.

That's the way it is. The ball's in your court. Unless the aviation
community
and perhaps the FAA can work out a helpful response,.the path is going to
be
regrettably clear.

The ball's with both of us in the same court. And the statement you
made here makes my point: it's only the aviation community and
the FAA who has to change? That, like what STN does, is not
negotiating. It's saying "you have to change, not me." and "you
need to adapt to me, not vice-versa." Dont you see the problem
with that tactic? You should, you don't sound stupid.
I'll continue to work with the reasonable ones, but I'll treat the others
the same way the Inquisition, witch hunters, and Nazi's were eventually
dealt with - ignoring them only makes it worse.

Good luck in your endeavor. Hopefully you'll be a problem-solver and
and not a trouble-maker. The world could use more of the former, and
less of the latter.
Chris