"Peter Stickney" wrote in message
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John Carrier wrote:


wrote in message
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On Jun 30, 1:54 pm, "John Carrier" wrote:
"Schlomo Lipchitz" wrote in message

...

Whevever I see a TV show about the F-4, all the AF guys do is bitch
about the early models not having a gun. Just how many kills (if
any)
have the F-14, F-15, F-16, and F-18 had with guns???

On the Navy side, Zero for the F-14 and F-18. I don't think the USAF
F-15/16 drivers have ever gotten a gun kill either, it's possible the
Israelis have. With modern missile systems, you generally have to
drive
through the missile envelope to get to guns, so it makes little sense
to
pass up the opportunity and expose yourself more than necessary. A gun
kill
in a post-Vietnam world would also often require entering a
hard-maneuvering
engagement that is generally an unhealthy place to be.

An interesting note. Most Vietnam gun kills were scored by the F-105,
perhaps the least maneuverable aircraft in wide service there.

No Crusader gun kills?

The question was about the modern aircraft. For the F-8, if I counted
correctly, 4 with the gun only, 3 more sidewinder + gun. And one with no
ordnance expended ;-).

And another 10 or so which were Sidewinder only.
John, Given the lack of reliability of the F-8's guns,
how much were you really relying on them?
Was doctrine at the time to take advantage of the situation that
since, in order to set yourself up for a gun shot, you'd drive right
through
the Sidewinder's best engagement zone and geometry, that you'd push for
the
gun shot, but it was mostly a follow-up if the missile didn't work?

The guns weakness was the length of the flexible feeds from the ammo cans
located behind the cockpit (head high) and the guns which were in the lower
forward fuselage. Under G, some flexing would occur, the belted ammo would
catch and break a link. The trick was to avoid firing at anything over 4 G,
and preferably around 2.5 ... not easy against a turning adversary.

As I noted in an earlier post, you usually flew though the Sidewinder
envelope prior to reaching a gun solution. So ... rely on the missile.
Snap (opportunity) shot at high TCA was still available with guns. The WCS
allowed both guns and missiles to be available, missiles on the pickle and
guns on the trigger.

Pushing for the gun shot was generally ill-advised in a multi-plane
engagement. The time expended from sidewinder envelope (1NM and within 40
degrees in the era) to guns (1000') created a predictable path the free
bogey could exploit.

The Thuds got lots of gun kills because most of the time that's what they
had and all they had. With A/A missile armament, the gun is primarily a
weapon of (somewhat unusual) opportunity and often (in the training
environment) ego.

R / John