"shonen" wrote in message ...
Umm, they didn't "pull out" of NATO. They very conveniently stayed in
just
enough to whine about stuff but far enough out to never actually do any
work.

Actually, they did pull out of NATO. By March 1966, deGaulle had
withdrawn
France from NATO and its command structure because he felt that France
needed to
be independent of joint security considerations, which would not have been
possible had they remained in NATO. As an example, they would have been
unable
to bar the presence of missiles from their soil that were under foreign
(to
them) control, which was a step that de Gaulle actually took. They
remained out
of NATO until Mitterand brought them back in during the early '90s,
although I
am not sure of that date or time period.

George Z.

As I remember they pulled out at least partly due to the Cuban missile
crisis.

Then your memory needs recalibrating a bit. Check the timeline.

It became apparent to them, and everyone else, that Europe could not
depend on the US not to sell them out in a crisis. As happened.

And just when did we sell out Europe during a crisis? Berlin in 48?
Nope. Berlin in 61-62? Nope. So when did this great sell out occur?
ISTR that the US was still providing the bulk of the common defense
for Europe in 1989, when the all came down?

The US were
willing to do a secret deal with the Soviets to pull out the missiles from
Turkey in exchange for the Soviets pulling their missiles out of Cuba.

That is true (so you are what, one-for-three so far?). JFK and his
little brother did make that a secret deal, something some of us are
none too proud of. But that was hardly a case of "selling out Europe",
either; the case can be, and has been, made that those Jupiter's were
already on their way out, and this was really an inconsequential grant
to Khrushev to allow him to save some face with the Politburo. If it
*was* a sell out, what does the fact that the US pushed through the
European basing of Pershing II and GLCM's during the 80's imply?

The
US would not be willing to commit to full scale war for Europe.

Thirty plus years of history in successfully facing the Soviets in
Western Europe seems to make that statement lack credibility.

The French
felt that they needed an independent nuclear capability to deter the
Soviets, rather than relying on the US, who had demonstrated a willingness
to sacrifice NATO security for their own.

No, the French were just pursuing their own vision of independence
from the alliance in general, and the US in particular. IMO, they had
a national ego problem extending back to their WWII
experience/performance (or lack thereof), and this was just another
manner of making themselves feel as if they were again a superpower.
Note that the UK also developed its own independent nuclear force
*without* resorting to the theatrics exemplified in the French
pull-out from the unified command structure.


Not that I blame the US. The whole massive retaliation thing wasn't a really
practical proposition. In may sound good in theory, but when things come to
a crunch, the US really couldn't be expected to make the supreme sacrifice
for Europe.

But the only thing that matters in the end is that it *worked*.

The Europeans knew this and were always wary of US efforts to
distance themselves, or to restrict nuclear war just to Europe. I guess if
the French nuked Moscow, the Soviets wouldn't have worried who they nuked in
retaliation. Share the pain.

Illogical if you are positing that the French would nuke Moscow
without involvement of the US and other NATO allies, IMO. What route
would you have had those Mirage IV's (and their supporting
tankers--they bought their KC-135's expressly to support the Force de
Frappe, or Crappe, or whatever...) flying to *get* to Moscow? ISTR it
was not until about 1971 that their IRBM force became operational?

Brooks


As for the Transall, my 1968 Observors says crew of 4, 81 troops or 62
casualty stretchers and 4 medical attendants. Other (vehicle) loads not
exceeding 35,270 lb. weight.Military Transports and Training Aircraft of the
World add cross section of the cabin is 9ft, 7in by 10 ft 2 1/2 in for a
length of 42 ft.