On Jul 4, 11:11 am, "John Carrier" wrote:
"Ed Rasimus" wrote in message

...





On Wed, 4 Jul 2007 10:37:29 -0400, "Kyle Boatright"
wrote:

"John Carrier" wrote in message
m...
"Speed is life" was drummed into my brain starting with FAM-1 in the
F-8.
Particularly vital in an era where any likely adversary would eat you
alive in a slow turning fight. Also useful when it was time to leave
the
scene ... max speed to disengage and get to feet wet and safety. We're
not talking big mach numbers at altitude, but big knots(AKA Q)
relatively
low ... shrinking missile envelopes and generating separation from the
bad
guys.

Had an interesting conversation with a PXO (former Bug driver) who just
finished 4 years at the puzzle palace. He claimed we didn't need speed
in
tactical aircraft.

By default we don't have it in USN aircraft. The F-18C/D can't exceed
700
knots on a good day. The E/F is slower. They're impressive at high
alpha
(only the F-22 and modded flankers are better), but they're not
dragsters
(they're also a bit weak in endurance and range). But no matter.

Alleged reason: It's cheaper to design a missile that'll kill anyone
giving chase than it is to design an airplane that can egress. As the
AIM-9X is developed further, it will be able to engage a bogey at or
near
dead six (!?!). Of course, the argument overlooks the fact that we've
been flying F-18's for some 20 years without this capability. In
certain
Pacific Rim scenarios, an intrepid aviator in a Mig series aircraft
could
give chase and run down the Bug and put one up where the sun don't
shine.

This sounds like one of those scenarios where "by the time he's in
position
to shoot me down, I can shoot him down too"... Ok, so you shoot each
other
down... Not a trade-off which would make the Navy happy.

On the other hand, there are few scenarios today where any opponent is
will
go toe to toe with the US in the air, so it may be a moot point. The
Mig-29
pilot can't shoot you down if his airplane is a smoking ruin sitting on
the
ramp.

Any thoughts? There aren't many potential adversaries that could put up
a
significant A/A defense and current tactics are to neutralize them early
(Six day war style, as opposed to Vietnam), but it only takes one late
arrival in the furball to ruin your day. Is the day of the 800+ egress
over?

R / John

Let me see if I can put this in context--it seems to fit right into
the "we'll never need a gun" or maybe "there's no need for a new
aircraft, we'll just build more (insert current obsolescent system
here.)"

No one is willing to go toe-to-toe with the US in the air because we
have technological superiority. Yet, we see new airplanes being built
and bought by potential adversaries every year. Typhoons and
Eurofighters and MiG-97s or whatever are coming along to someday
challenge us. "Wish Him Dead" missiles are on drawing boards around
the world.

We know from experience that every new weapon generates a new counter.
SAMs didn't kill us, IR seekers didn't kill us, auto-tracking guns
with high rates-of-fire didn't kill us, super-agile Cobra-popping
fighters didn't kill us, etc. etc.

Why? Because we continued to get FASTER, more AGILE, better ARMED,
better TRAINED, more EXPERIENCED, better LED, etc. etc.

Q? I need it. I want it. I've got to have it. I've NEVER been TOO
FAST--and I know it is way too easy to be TOO SLOOOOOWWWWW.

Your mileage may vary.

How true. Egress from adversary in F-5s. My comms: "Your right three low,
accelerating. Say your airspeed."

Reply with much exuberance, "600 knots!"

"Well, I'm passing 700 and I'm NOT fast enough."

R / John- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

as a current hornet driver i have to say i agree wholeheartedly.
though i love the big alpha hog as much as the next guy, i would trade
the unlimited alpha for
the ability to put more smash on my 120C5 any day (i only dream about
what kind of A/F poles the Raptor guys get up in the bozosphere
running around at those knots), as well as the ability to run from
well, any airplane, which we cannot do now. Funny, we just had a BFM
phase brief and we were talking about how our tacmans are total bs
when they talk about separating from a fight. Though it may be great
swaggering bar talk to speak of how we better be good at BFM, because
"once we anchor its either win or die" - I wouldn't be so keen on
getting into a vis fight at war not because of what the flanker/
fulcrum/insert adversary here will do, but my complete inability to
get away from all of the other dudes either smelling blood or looking
at his fireball and chasing me down. Only real Hornet deficiency - too
slow!!! We can talk about the gas issue some other day hahaha!
phase brief yesterday..our