If they ever figure out how to effectively jam GPS all of those GPS
dependant wonder weapons are going to be pretty limited.

Can you name which weapons are "GPS dependent"? JDAM is not (it uses an
inertial guidance system, with GPS updates providing enhanced accuracy, but
it is still pretty accurate with just the inertial), and I doubt SDB will
be, either.

JDAM, JSOW, JASSM. Sure they have inertial backups but they aren't
going to be flying into any open doors or individual buildings with
them. If GPS is down that means they get their initial coordinate
from the launching aircraft's INS. Those drift and aren't precision
by any stretch.






JCM is to use three guidance systems, all packaged into one
missile--MMW radar, semi-active laser, and IR. So your point would be...?

Well since GPS isn't a JCM form of guidance you obviously MISSED my
point. I commented on JCM's short range and small warhead and you
said "well we could use XXX instead". "XXX" being a GPS guided weapon
of one kind or another.



Not to mention that the DoD has apparently been staying a jump ahead of
jamming attempts to date, and has expressed a strong desire to continue in
that mode.


Great. Doesn't mean they'll always succeed.




Also your
targeting options are going to be substantially less than a LOAL
Maverick not to mention the lack of precision compared to a Maverick.

Lack of precision? Can you point to any source that indicates JCM will be
*less* precise than the AGM-65 family?


Like I said, you missed the point. We're talking about GPS guided
weapons.



With a tri-mode seeker, it would be
hard to say that JCM will offer less targeting options than the Maverick,
which forces you to target using the single system available to that
particular variant.

A JCM will not be able to take out the full spectrum of Maverick
targets anymore than an SDB will be able to handle 2000lb BLU-109
targets.

And as I said earlier, if the target is such that it is determined a JCM
*can't* handle it, then other options will remain available. What is the
single "target set" that the military services are most concerned with being
able to kill these days? Those that are mobile (the whole idea behind
reducing the sensor-to-shooter lagtime). How many mobile targets are there
that can't be killed by a JCM but can be killed by a Maverick?


Well you go hit those SA-17 sites with your JCM and I'll use a LOAL
Maverick. Who do you think will have more fun?



Darned few
(medium sized and larger combatant vessels being the majority of those few,
though JCM's dual/tandem warhead would not make life easy for *any* patrol
combatatnt it hits--and we still have Harpoon to deal with those). If the
target is a MBT, then you need a direct hit to be assured of killing
it--even with a Maverick; so why would JCM be a less capable missile in this
regard?

Range, range, range.








Using the "plenty" argument, then the USAF would apparently be wasting
its
effort with the SDB; I mean, heck, the A-10 or F-16 can carry oodles of
Mark
82's, right? But the folks in charge seem quite interested in being able
to
both increase the number of munitions carried per sortie, and at the same
time take advantage of more precise engagement capabilities with smaller
warheads to reduce collateral damage--why do you think the same
philosophy
does not make sense in the JCM versus Maverick debate?


You'll also note they're keeping LGBs around though. SDBs are great
if you're attacking a stationary target who's location is known or if
you have a guy on the ground to get you a GPS coordinate but if you
are trying to hit a moving target you'll want an LGB not an SDB.

Not necessarily. The USAF and USN have been involved with some interesting
tests involving hitting *moving* (not just mobile) targets with non-laser
guided weapons, using datalinked information from airborne radars to update
the munition after it has been dropped. ISTR reading where a LMCO system of
that sort has already chalked up a couple of "hits" during tests. And if the
target is moving and you *do* have a laser lock on it, JCM will do the
job--it has that semi active laser capability, remember?


*sigh* Try to stay on topic. Or at least in context. I was saying
you aren't going to be able to hit moving targets with GPS. Sure
they've done some tests. That was several years ago and you'll notice
we haven't heard anything about it since. It's one thing to get a
group of aircraft together to support hitting a target moving in a
straight line. Quite another to support scores of strike aircraft who
could be anywhere trying to hit god-knows-what. If you have an army
on the move supported by SA-17sor moving targets inside a zone
defended by SA-17s (or anything better for that matter) you're not
going to want to try to take them out with JCM. Not if you're smart
anyway. IF they're emmitting then sure, you can take a HARM shot. If
they're just hanging out waiting offline then you're out of luck with
the HARM.




On
that same note a JCM will not be able to handle all Maverick targets,
especially if you factor in the LOAL capability that is being looked
into.

But from what I gather, JCM will also have LOAL capability (according to
LMCO), so what advantage does Maverick offer in that regard?


Range.






I'm not saying JCM couldn't handle many of the targets
currently assigned to Maverick but it's not a 100% solution. A good
example happened during Desert Storm. You had a couple A-10s tooling
around in the boonies looking for targets of opportunity and they saw
a big bunker with guys standing around it's open door so they flew a
Maverickthrough the open door and destroyed it. An itty bitty 25
pound warhead won't have the effect of a 125 (or 300 for that matter)
pound warhead on a bunker and from a practicle standpoint you aren't
going to get a GPS guided anything through it on short notice without
a guy on the ground.


You seem to have an erroneous view of what the JCM warhead is all about. It
uses a tandem warhead system--a shaped charge to punch an entry way for the
following blast/frag warhead

Well what it "sounds" like is a roughly 25 pound warhead.




. Sounds like your bunker could have been taken
down by a JCM just as well as that Maverick.


There's that range thing again.



Care to guess what the effect
of even ten pounds of HE going off *inside* a bunker would be?

Yeah. Nothing like a 125 or 300 pound warhead.



Guarantee you
none of the occupants are going to be able to tell you about it for quite a
while--if ever.

Maybe not the people but the equipment is another matter.






At best you'd have to use a laser system on the
aircraft (which the A-10 doesn't have) to get a GPS coordinate but
since you want the bomb to go INSIDE the bunker THROUGH the open door
I'm not sure you'd have a lot of luck getting that coordinate where
you want it.

Since JCM offers three different modes of targeting, I believe it would be
more capable in this regard than any single-mode Maverick.


Provided that the defenders don't have SAMs that out-range JCM. Much
more likely than with Maverick.




From what I have read, the actual effective range of maverick is less than
what JCM is supposed to offer; Maverick having what one source credited as
about a 14 km *effective* maximum range, versus 16 km for JCM.


According to Lockheed's sheet on the JCM it's 16km for rotary wing and
28 for fixed wing. For the Maverick the info I've found lists about
is also 28km. For LOAL Maverick Raytheon says "over 20 miles" (32km)
but I've seen 40 miles mentioned too. Unfortunately I can't locate
the 40 mile figure. It might have been in Jane's or something. The
thing is if LOAL Maverick only gets you twenty miles AND JCM has LOAL
capability I'm inclined to agree with you. OTH if LOAL Maverick is in
the 30 to 40 mile range I think it would be sacrificing capability.






Or,
coversely, if the striker has to provide its own air defense in this
scenario, which would be better--the F-16 with only two pylons remaining
(after adding a couple of extra AIM-120's to the sortie requirment)
lugging
two AGM-65's, or the same aircraft carrying four or six JCM's?

Brook

Those AIM-120s aren't going to do you much good against an SA-17
battery. On the other hand with an LOAL Maverick you could fire from
outside the SAM's range whereas with a JCM you could not.

Not according to what I have been reading. If that info has not been
correct, please provide your numbers.

See my above comment. Until I can track down the 40 mile figure for
LOAL Maverick I'm thinking it might have been an error. I'd think if
anybody Raytheon would talking about it but they say only "20+ miles".