Logging time in a P51D?

Anybody care to take a shot at this question?

I took a ride in a P51D recently. After we left the pattern the
owner, in the front seat, let me (in the back seat) take over the
stick for the next hour. Then in the pattern he took over and landed.
I was the only one who touched the controls for an hour. I have a
PPL with plenty of time in tail draggers (170's, 180's, Tcraft,
supercub, etc) and in complex, high perf, and RG planes (182's,
Vikings, etc). I am current in SEL planes but I haven't flown a
taildragger in some time (20 yrs) and of course everything else is
current; medical, BFR, etc. Can I log the hour towards total time or
should I just log it for the memory?

M. Grinnin

You may log the time you were controlling the aircraft as pilot time. You
may log it as PIC time if the P-51 does not require a type rating.
§ 61.51 Pilot logbooks.
(c) Logging of pilot time. The pilot time described in this section may be
used to:

(1) Apply for a certificate or rating issued under this part; or

(2) Satisfy the recent flight experience requirements of this part.

(e) Logging pilot-in-command flight time. (1) A recreational, private, or
commercial pilot may log pilot-in- command time only for that flight time
during which that person-

(i) Is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the
pilot is rated;

"C J Campbell" wrote in message
...
You may log the time you were controlling the aircraft as pilot time. You
may log it as PIC time if the P-51 does not require a type rating.
§ 61.51 Pilot logbooks.
(c) Logging of pilot time. The pilot time described in this section may be
used to:

(1) Apply for a certificate or rating issued under this part; or

(2) Satisfy the recent flight experience requirements of this part.

(e) Logging pilot-in-command flight time. (1) A recreational, private, or
commercial pilot may log pilot-in- command time only for that flight time
during which that person-

(i) Is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the
pilot is rated;


I was under the impression that the FAA had determined that each of the WWII
fighters required a Letter of Authorization (LOA) to be flown by a civilian
pilot. Because of this LOA requirement, which is a practical equivalent to
a type rating, even a military pilot of that particular aircraft model could
not log PIC time as a civilian, unless he had the LOA.

Maybe I'm wrong.

--
Scott

"justaguy" wrote in message
om

I took a ride in a P51D recently. Can I log the hour towards total
time or should I just log it for the memory?

Log whatever you'd like. Just don't count everything you log.

This flight is definitely one that you'd want to write about (perhaps even
more verbosely than usual), but don't expect it to count towards a rating.

--
John T
http://tknowlogy.com/TknoFlyer
http://www.pocketgear.com/products_s...veloperid=4415
____________________

"tscottme" wrote in message I was under the impression that the FAA had
determined that each of the WWII
fighters required a Letter of Authorization (LOA) to be flown by a
civilian
pilot. Because of this LOA requirement, which is a practical equivalent
to
a type rating, even a military pilot of that particular aircraft model
could
not log PIC time as a civilian, unless he had the LOA.

You are correct for warbirds having 1000 horsepower or more. Does the
requirement for an LOA count as a rating as concerns this particular
question? I could research it, but soon the LOA will be gone and in it's
place will be type-ratings. In the near future, P-51 will be a type-rating.

D.

I took a ride in a P51D recently.

Who cares how you log it?

Lucky C...
;)

Peter

On Tue, 6 Jul 2004 22:43:18 -0700, "C J Campbell"
wrote:

You may log the time you were controlling the aircraft as pilot time. You
may log it as PIC time if the P-51 does not require a type rating.
§ 61.51 Pilot logbooks.
(c) Logging of pilot time. The pilot time described in this section may be
used to:

(1) Apply for a certificate or rating issued under this part; or

(2) Satisfy the recent flight experience requirements of this part.

(e) Logging pilot-in-command flight time. (1) A recreational, private, or
commercial pilot may log pilot-in- command time only for that flight time
during which that person-

(i) Is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the
pilot is rated;


I don't think he can log PIC unless the person he was with was a CFI.
He said he didn't fly taildraggers for 20 years. This would mean he
is not current to act as PIC with passengers until he does 3 full stop
landings. If he wants to log it as PIC I think to be perfectly legal
he should also log it as dual received and have the CFI sign it
(assumong the guy was a CFI).

He can definitely log total time regardless.

z

"zatatime" wrote in message
...

I don't think he can log PIC unless the person he was with was a CFI.
He said he didn't fly taildraggers for 20 years. This would mean he
is not current to act as PIC with passengers until he does 3 full stop
landings.

Currency has nothing to do with it. You do not have to act as PIC in order
to log PIC. Read the regulation quoted in my post.

On Wed, 7 Jul 2004 07:40:39 -0700, "C J Campbell"
wrote:


"zatatime" wrote in message
.. .

I don't think he can log PIC unless the person he was with was a CFI.
He said he didn't fly taildraggers for 20 years. This would mean he
is not current to act as PIC with passengers until he does 3 full stop
landings.

Currency has nothing to do with it. You do not have to act as PIC in order
to log PIC. Read the regulation quoted in my post.


I did. This does not preclude him from needing to satisfy 61.57. The
other person in the plane cannot act as PIC in a P51, while not the
"sole manipulator of the controls" since it does not require more than
one crew member. If he cannot act as PIC because he's not flying, and
the original poster can't act as PIC because he isn't current then who
is acting as PIC? Seems to me the answer is no one. This goes back
to a lengthy thread not to long ago about logging time. I don't agree
that "no one" can be acting as PIC, and I don't believe the FAA would
either. Satisfying one reg does not mean your are in full compliance
with all regs (which I'm sure you will agree). I think this is one of
those sticky spots where multiple regs come into play and you need to
not only satisfy each reg, but also the implied overlap of the regs in
question. "The spirit of the law" carries alot of weight in situations
that aren't cut and dry.

z

"zatatime" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 7 Jul 2004 07:40:39 -0700, "C J Campbell"
wrote:


"zatatime" wrote in message
.. .

I don't think he can log PIC unless the person he was with was a CFI.
He said he didn't fly taildraggers for 20 years. This would mean he
is not current to act as PIC with passengers until he does 3 full stop
landings.

Currency has nothing to do with it. You do not have to act as PIC in
order
to log PIC. Read the regulation quoted in my post.


I did. This does not preclude him from needing to satisfy 61.57. The
other person in the plane cannot act as PIC in a P51, while not the
"sole manipulator of the controls" since it does not require more than
one crew member. If he cannot act as PIC because he's not flying, and
the original poster can't act as PIC because he isn't current then who
is acting as PIC?

You have so many faulty assumptions here it is difficult to know where to
begin.

First of all, the aircraft does not have to require more than one crewmember
in order for the sole manipulator of the controls to act as PIC.

Secondly, the non-flying pilot may act as PIC without being able to log it,
as in this case. What makes you think he is not able to act as PIC?

The current and rated pilot remains PIC throughout the flight whether he is
logging PIC or not.

The FAA has made it clear in numerous rulings and in the regulations
themselves that logging PIC and acting PIC are two different things. Their
own test materials give numerous questions pertaining to this matter. I know
of one FAA question that asks whether an instructor that has no medical can
log PIC and whether he is acting as PIC. The correct answer is that the
instructor may log PIC any time that he is giving instruction, but he may
not act as PIC because he has no medical. Therefore he can only give
instruction to pilots who can act as PIC even though he himself logs the
time as PIC.

The last lengthy thread you refer to shows you obstinately holding to this
opinion of yours despite the fact that everyone who has any knowledge of the
matter disagrees with you. You are a minority of one. You are flat-out
wrong. And you are beginning to sound pretty stupid as well.