Wave Off on Early Tow Question

Folks,

Is there a prefered policy on how to handle a wave off from the tug
in the first several hundred feet on tow. General policy dictates a
turn back to the field should be into the wind, but if the tug is
truly having difficulties his normal tendancy would be to do the same
thing, causing a possible conflict. Above 300 feet the glider would
have moe time to see what the tug did and react accordingly; but at
200' there wouldnt be much time causing a possible conflict. I imagine
even if both aircraft turn the same direction the glider would be much
tighter/higher, but it is worth considering all possible senarios.

thanks,

mp

If a tug waves u off at 200 ft, he's going to land straight ahead. an
airplane cant make a safe turn back until about 800 feet if I recall
correctly. and that's still cutting it close. besides, if a tug has troubles
at 200 feet, he most likely isn't going to have time to wave you off, you'll
have to see the trouble and pop yourself off or go down with him.

Power pilots, correct me if I'm wrong.
"Michael Pitoniak" wrote in message
om...
Folks,

Is there a prefered policy on how to handle a wave off from the tug
in the first several hundred feet on tow. General policy dictates a
turn back to the field should be into the wind, but if the tug is
truly having difficulties his normal tendancy would be to do the same
thing, causing a possible conflict. Above 300 feet the glider would
have moe time to see what the tug did and react accordingly; but at
200' there wouldnt be much time causing a possible conflict. I imagine
even if both aircraft turn the same direction the glider would be much
tighter/higher, but it is worth considering all possible senarios.

thanks,

mp


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if tuggy got problems at 200ft.. your first clue might be 1) smoke out the
stack 2) he's descending 3) you're left holding the rope.

had that happen to a friend once.. Stearman tow popped a jug.. glider pilot
saw the puff of smoke and the rope released at the same time.. luckily they
were about 500ft.. he was trailing 200ft of rope off the glider nose.. and
not enough drag to cause a back release on a Schweitzer hook. he was in a
2-32

BT

"Scott" wrote in message
...
If a tug waves u off at 200 ft, he's going to land straight ahead. an
airplane cant make a safe turn back until about 800 feet if I recall
correctly. and that's still cutting it close. besides, if a tug has
troubles
at 200 feet, he most likely isn't going to have time to wave you off,
you'll
have to see the trouble and pop yourself off or go down with him.

Power pilots, correct me if I'm wrong.
"Michael Pitoniak" wrote in message
om...
Folks,

Is there a prefered policy on how to handle a wave off from the tug
in the first several hundred feet on tow. General policy dictates a
turn back to the field should be into the wind, but if the tug is
truly having difficulties his normal tendancy would be to do the same
thing, causing a possible conflict. Above 300 feet the glider would
have moe time to see what the tug did and react accordingly; but at
200' there wouldnt be much time causing a possible conflict. I imagine
even if both aircraft turn the same direction the glider would be much
tighter/higher, but it is worth considering all possible senarios.

thanks,

mp


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in article , Scott at
wrote on 2003/11/04 16:43:

If a tug waves u off at 200 ft, he's going to land straight ahead. an
airplane cant make a safe turn back until about 800 feet if I recall
correctly. and that's still cutting it close.

Read

http://web.usna.navy.mil/~dfr/flying/possible.html

and

http://web.usna.navy.mil/~dfr/flying/aiaa1col.pdf

to get up to date on the question of ASEL turnback performance.

800 feet is probably far too conservative.



Jack

Jack wrote in message ...
in article , Scott at
wrote on 2003/11/04 16:43:

If a tug waves u off at 200 ft, he's going to land straight ahead. an
airplane cant make a safe turn back until about 800 feet if I recall
correctly. and that's still cutting it close.

Read

http://web.usna.navy.mil/~dfr/flying/possible.html

and

http://web.usna.navy.mil/~dfr/flying/aiaa1col.pdf

to get up to date on the question of ASEL turnback performance.

800 feet is probably far too conservative.

I figure a thousand ft minimum for a pawnee if you hold your mouth
just right.(5000msl+density where I fly) Of course Im already overhead
by then. I only simulated it once at altitude a long time ago just out
of curiosity, so your results may vary. They glide OK straght ahead,
but not when you're turning. Even flown right, it still comes down
like a beveled refridgerator. I'll do 200' in gliders all day long,
but with power, I hope the Blessed Lady of Internal Combustion gets me
within gliding range of a soft spot.
-Dan



Jack

I've done this - twice. The signal to the glider is the end of the rope
being dropped by the towplane. At low altitudes, if I have a problem
requiring a wave off, I don't have time to wait for the sailplane pilot
to recognize any signal, let alone the problem of sufficient motion
on my part to be recognizable by the sailplane. The same goes
with radio communication. I don't have time to request permission
and get a "huh" response. Anything less than pattern altitude or
anything requiring sudden change of direction for my best survival
and the glider will be suddenly on his own. That glider has far more
chance of surviving unattached than it does attached. My survival
absolutely depends on the glider being unattached.

Likewise, I am not going to worry about which way the glider turns.
It is highly unlikely that the glider is going to descend faster than
the towplane.

In article ,
(Michael Pitoniak) wrote:
Folks,

Is there a prefered policy on how to handle a wave off from the tug
in the first several hundred feet on tow. General policy dictates a
turn back to the field should be into the wind, but if the tug is
truly having difficulties his normal tendancy would be to do the same
thing, causing a possible conflict. Above 300 feet the glider would
have moe time to see what the tug did and react accordingly; but at
200' there wouldnt be much time causing a possible conflict. I imagine
even if both aircraft turn the same direction the glider would be much
tighter/higher, but it is worth considering all possible senarios.

thanks,

mp

"Michael Pitoniak" wrote in message
om...
Folks,

Is there a prefered policy on how to handle a wave off from the tug
in the first several hundred feet on tow. General policy dictates a
turn back to the field should be into the wind, but if the tug is
truly having difficulties his normal tendancy would be to do the same
thing, causing a possible conflict. Above 300 feet the glider would
have moe time to see what the tug did and react accordingly; but at
200' there wouldnt be much time causing a possible conflict. I imagine
even if both aircraft turn the same direction the glider would be much
tighter/higher, but it is worth considering all possible senarios.

First of all, Scott correctly observed that the tow plane will not be
executing a 180 and returning to the runway from a complete power loss at
200 feet. That said, a waveoff should always be considered to be the
TOWPLANE'S emergency. We must realize that a glider without power is in far
better shape than a towplane without power. When releasing from a waveoff
we should expect that the towplane will probably want to turn directly
towards the runway, whatever direction that is. Your normal release turn
may not be appropriate if it could possibly interfere with the towplane's
return. Assuming you are significantly above 200 feet, It may be best to
continue straight ahead for a few seconds and slow down while manuvering
just enough to keep the tow plane in view. Unless the purpose of the
waveoff was a true complete power failure, the towplane may not lose
altitude as fast as you think. Keep your options open as long as possible,
because you may well be presented with a blocked runway.

Vaughn



thanks,

mp

its always nice to have two runways.. parallel.. or an open infield ... just
land the glider where the tug is not..

most likely if the tug gets turned around.. he'll land at the near end and
the glider can over fly and land long..

could be.. with the drag of the glider gone.. the tug may have enough power
to sustain altitude to get back..

BT

"Vaughn" wrote in message
...

"Michael Pitoniak" wrote in message
om...
Folks,

Is there a prefered policy on how to handle a wave off from the tug
in the first several hundred feet on tow. General policy dictates a
turn back to the field should be into the wind, but if the tug is
truly having difficulties his normal tendancy would be to do the same
thing, causing a possible conflict. Above 300 feet the glider would
have moe time to see what the tug did and react accordingly; but at
200' there wouldnt be much time causing a possible conflict. I imagine
even if both aircraft turn the same direction the glider would be much
tighter/higher, but it is worth considering all possible senarios.

First of all, Scott correctly observed that the tow plane will not be
executing a 180 and returning to the runway from a complete power loss at
200 feet. That said, a waveoff should always be considered to be the
TOWPLANE'S emergency. We must realize that a glider without power is in
far
better shape than a towplane without power. When releasing from a waveoff
we should expect that the towplane will probably want to turn directly
towards the runway, whatever direction that is. Your normal release turn
may not be appropriate if it could possibly interfere with the towplane's
return. Assuming you are significantly above 200 feet, It may be best to
continue straight ahead for a few seconds and slow down while manuvering
just enough to keep the tow plane in view. Unless the purpose of the
waveoff was a true complete power failure, the towplane may not lose
altitude as fast as you think. Keep your options open as long as
possible,
because you may well be presented with a blocked runway.

Vaughn



thanks,

mp

The policy is, you both do what you gotta do, and try not to hit each
other in the process.

anyone know how short a pawnee can land? Might be in consideration when landing
on the same runway.