If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below. |
|
|
|
Thread Tools | Display Modes |
#1
|
|||
|
|||
Landing gear door operation
In another online forum, it has been claimed that on the F-18, F-14,
F-4, and possibly F-8, A-7, A-6, and A-4, all the landing gear doors stay open when the gear are extended. While typically (or at least in most other military jets), some of the landing gear doors open only during extension/retraction, and are closed while the gear are extended. Can anyone comment on the extent to which this is true? If so, there's an obvious pattern of this characteristic appearing in fighter/attack jets which were originally designed for the Navy. Is this due to Navy "culture" or somehow related to a safety/reliability issue for carrier-based operation? Or generally, is there some reason that some jets are designed with gear doors that stay open, while others have doors that close after the gear are extended? (The only reasons I've seen that make sense are simplicity versus air drag and, in some cases, ground clearance.) Many thanks in advance. --Elliot Wilen |
#2
|
|||
|
|||
Sparky's got it correct on those two birds (EA-6B Prowler & A-6E Intruder).
I spent about half my career keeping those turds fixed so he could go flying. I QA'd lots of late night "drop checks" at the Rock and afloat making sure those gear doors worked as required. Or generally, is there some reason that some jets are designed with gear doors that stay open, while others have doors that close after the gear are extended? I can't speak for the others, but in the case of the Prowler, I understand it was to address a low speed performance issue (as it was explained to a groundpounder). Is this due to Navy "culture" or somehow related to a safety/reliability issue for carrier-based operation? Actually my gut tells me that due to the very demanding nature of carrier landings (high angle of attack, high rate of descent, critical application of power, etc, etc) I'd say that the pilot must have absolute control of the aircraft and research has shown that closing the gear doors (whenever possible) can contribute to smoother airflow and thus better controllability. What a mouthfull. You got the idea. the Prowler had a provision for the forward gear doors to be opened on deck by the plane captain. Gotta make sure there are no hydraulic leaks before you go off the pointy end there Sparky. We want you all to make it a round trip you know! Interesting looking back for a moment. Larry AECS (AW/SW/MTS) Disabled Combat Veteran USN Retired 20 years of Navy in my rear view mirror and getting further away every day ;-) "Elmshoot" wrote in message ... Elliot, On the A-6 Intruder the forward gear doors stayed open when the gear was down. On the EA-6B the forward gear door was only open while the gear was in transit then it closed. When the gear was extended via the emergency gear extention the forward gear doors stayed open with a note in the Natops manual about added drag from the doors being open and higher fuel burn. The Prowler had better throttle response than the Intruder. However on speed was slightly on the back side of the power curve so the reducton of drag was felt to be warneted. Now before you get your knickers in a twist, the Prowler had a provision for the forward gear doors to be opened on deck by the plane captain. So almost all pictures of the Prowler on deck will show the gear doors open. 1400 hrs in the A-6 and 2200 in the Prowler are my reference for the above. I don't know of and have never heard of any conspierency for some standard configuration for the gear doors. Frankly I have never even though about the question. Sparky In another online forum, it has been claimed that on the F-18, F-14, F-4, and possibly F-8, A-7, A-6, and A-4, all the landing gear doors stay open when the gear are extended. While typically (or at least in most other military jets), some of the landing gear doors open only during extension/retraction, and are closed while the gear are extended. Can anyone comment on the extent to which this is true? If so, there's an obvious pattern of this characteristic appearing in fighter/attack jets which were originally designed for the Navy. Is this due to Navy "culture" or somehow related to a safety/reliability issue for carrier-based operation? Or generally, is there some reason that some jets are designed with gear doors that stay open, while others have doors that close after the gear are extended? (The only reasons I've seen that make sense are simplicity versus air drag and, in some cases, ground clearance.) Many thanks in advance. --Elliot Wilen |
#3
|
|||
|
|||
On Sat, 05 Jul 2003 03:54:46 GMT, "Lynn Coffelt"
wrote: very early T-38's used hydraulic powered "ailerons" on the main landing gear doors to help retract the main gear in flight. The wing was so thin that there wasn't much room for conventional retraction mechanism. Seemed to work OK, but later models found room for conventional mechanism. Did it use a shrink scheme to retract the oleo strut while the gear retracted??? Been a while! JSC, which flies T-38Bs, used the part of the MLG door on the gear to increase the drag so they could chase the Orbiter. It had a spring normally or something and they fixed it in place. If I knew where my SETP proceedings were, I'd dig it out. The paper was by John McBride and Dick Grey. It was probably given in about '79 or so. Mary -- Mary Shafer Retired aerospace research engineer "Turn to kill, not to engage." LCDR Willie Driscoll, USN |
#5
|
|||
|
|||
Mary Shafer wrote
These are just the ones I've seen and can remember. Perhaps you mis-remember about the B-747? Bob Moore PanAm (retired) |
#6
|
|||
|
|||
"Lynn Coffelt" wrote:
very early T-38's used hydraulic powered "ailerons" on the main landing gear doors to help retract the main gear in flight. The wing was so thin that there wasn't much room for conventional retraction mechanism. Seemed to work OK, but later models found room for conventional mechanism. Did it use a shrink scheme to retract the oleo strut while the gear retracted??? Been a while! Old Chief Lynn Must have been very early. The airplane came into the inventory in '62 and I flew it in early '65 at Williams AFB. There were no "ailerons" or movable parts on the MLG doors at that time. There was a conventional compression strut and a 45 degree "drag link" that pushed and pulled for extension/retraction hydraulically. The wing had no bulges, such as on the F-4, to assist in housing the gear when retracted. The gear strut fit in the wing thickness and the wheel/tire assembly retracted into the underside of the fuselage. We had an incident in my pilot training class in which one of the German student (fully one-third of each UPT class at Willy was German's enroute to the F-104 across town at Luke), apparently trying some BFM tactics he had heard about, extended the gear at high speed and high G load in a turn. The resultant over-stress of the assembly sheared both MLG drag links leaving both gear unsupported and braced--swinging freely back and forth in the bay. A chase aircraft (the wing DO) visually inspected the damage and the student was directed to make a controlled ejection over the base. We had a procedure, flying off a CHD TACAN radial a set distance at 10k MSL then ejecting. Both the student and the airplane landed within the field boundary. They could never prove the student error (actually student pilots cannot make "pilot error" judgements) and he graduated on time and went on to a Luftwaffe career flying the 104. Ed Rasimus Fighter Pilot (ret) ***"When Thunder Rolled: *** An F-105 Pilot Over N. Vietnam" *** from Smithsonian Books ISBN: 1588341038 |
#7
|
|||
|
|||
"Peter Stickney" wrote in message ... In article , Mary Shafer writes: On 4 Jul 2003 19:05:44 -0700, (Elliot Wilen) wrote: In another online forum, it has been claimed that on the F-18, F-14, F-4, and possibly F-8, A-7, A-6, and A-4, all the landing gear doors stay open when the gear are extended. While typically (or at least in most other military jets), some of the landing gear doors open only during extension/retraction, and are closed while the gear are extended. The F-111 MLG doors open, the gear extends, and the doors shut. Mostly because otherwise these huge doors would be hanging out being speedbrakes. Well, on the 'Vark, the huge door _is_ the speedbrake. The F-111's maingear retracting sequence is a wonder to behold. F-4 doors stay open. So do F-15 and F-16 and B-52 doors. Ditto YF-12, SR-71, T-33, F-104, X-15, F-18, CV-990, A-7, F-8, KingAir, B-747, B-1, B-2, F-117, B-57, and U-2. Also Lear 24 and 25. And the Orbiter. These are just the ones I've seen and can remember. I'd say it's not most, military or otherwise. It seems to depend on who's making the airplane. North American products (P-51,various F-86s/FJs, the F-100, etc. have doors over the wheel wells that are normally closed except when cycling the gear. Boeing airliners since the 367-80 are the same way (Except for the 737, no wheel well doors), iirc. Some others may have, as well. I don't remember about DC-8s & 9s. -- Pete Stickney A point of note on the P51 at least, is that when you parked the airplane, (especially on a hot concrete ramp) you ALWAYS wanted to pull the emergency fairing door release handle, which eased the pressure in the hydraulic system and allowed the doors to open and hang. If you ever see a civilian owned 51 parked on a hot ramp somewhere with the doors up, you will probably see leaking hydraulic fluid under it ,as well as it's rich but not too bright pilot walking around with a rather large bill from Aeroquip Hose Inc., sticking out of his flight suit pocket!!!! :-)))) Dudley Henriques International Fighter Pilots Fellowship Commercial Pilot/CFI Retired |
#8
|
|||
|
|||
"Pechs1" wrote Or USAF...I don't know of any US military fighter that had doors that closed after the LG were down, ala an airliner..F-15, Century series fighters, etc. No reason to...to close some doors..maybe some airline puque can say why some airliners DO have some dorrs that close-to save fuel??? P. C. Chisholm CDR, USN(ret.) Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye Phlyer Hmmmm, Didn't some (or maybe all) F-86 series retract the nose gear door after the nose gear extended? The reason, I believe, was that the huge door was an aerodynamic hindarance to "slipping" and a liability during crosswind landings. Kind of like a big fin on the pointy end. Seem to remember we "dirty fingernailed" having to hit a switch or position a valve before the engine "spooled down" or restart the engine to get the door down. (for postflight inspection, etc) Old Chief Lynn |
#9
|
|||
|
|||
One argument for designed gear doors to be open during
landing approach on an aircraft carrier would be that the aircraft jet engine would run at higher RPM during approach which reduced spool-up time for a bolter or wave off. At least, spool-up time was a real concern half a century ago when we trapped under the mizzen mast sails on the poop deck. WDA end "Mary Shafer" wrote in message ... On 4 Jul 2003 19:05:44 -0700, (Elliot Wilen) wrote: In another online forum, it has been claimed that on the F-18, F-14, F-4, and possibly F-8, A-7, A-6, and A-4, all the landing gear doors stay open when the gear are extended. While typically (or at least in most other military jets), some of the landing gear doors open only during extension/retraction, and are closed while the gear are extended. The F-111 MLG doors open, the gear extends, and the doors shut. Mostly because otherwise these huge doors would be hanging out being speedbrakes. F-4 doors stay open. So do F-15 and F-16 and B-52 doors. Ditto YF-12, SR-71, T-33, F-104, X-15, F-18, CV-990, A-7, F-8, KingAir, B-747, B-1, B-2, F-117, B-57, and U-2. Also Lear 24 and 25. And the Orbiter. These are just the ones I've seen and can remember. I'd say it's not most, military or otherwise. -- Mary Shafer Retired aerospace research engineer "Turn to kill, not to engage." LCDR Willie Driscoll, USN |
#10
|
|||
|
|||
Mary Shafer wrote:
The F-111 MLG doors open, the gear extends, and the doors shut. Mostly because otherwise these huge doors would be hanging out being speedbrakes. F-4 doors stay open. So do F-15 and F-16 and B-52 doors. Ditto YF-12, SR-71, T-33, F-104, X-15, F-18, CV-990, A-7, F-8, KingAir, B-747, B-1, B-2, F-117, B-57, and U-2. Also Lear 24 and 25. And the Orbiter. These are just the ones I've seen and can remember. Not all the B-1 and B-2 doors remain open. B-1 main gear doors open to allow the gear to drop, then close after the gear is extended. The B-2 nose gear door closes after the gear is down. This is possible because the door is two pieces. The piece that covers the forward portion of the nose gear well is rigidly mounted on the nose strut. The strut's pivot point is at the far forward end of the nose well, thus the "clamshell" covering the rear can be shut when the strut assumes a vertical position. It would be impossible to do this with the B-2 main gear, since each of those doors is one piece. At the end of a mission the B-2 nose door is opened before engine shutdown so maintenance can easily access this area. That's why you always see it open in ground photos. The door is closed after engine start on the next mission. The switch that operates the door is on a control panel attached to the nose gear strut. -- Paul Hirose |
|
Thread Tools | |
Display Modes | |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
Aluminum vs Fiberglass landing gear - Pro's and cons. | Bart Hull | Home Built | 1 | November 24th 03 02:46 PM |
Aluminum vs Fiberglass landing gear - Pro's and cons. | Bart Hull | Home Built | 2 | November 24th 03 05:23 AM |
Aluminum vs Fiberglass landing gear - Pro's and cons. | Bart Hull | Home Built | 0 | November 24th 03 03:52 AM |
Aluminum vs Fiberglass landing gear - Pro's and cons. | Bart D. Hull | Home Built | 0 | November 22nd 03 06:24 AM |
Landing gear door operation | Elliot Wilen | Military Aviation | 11 | July 8th 03 03:30 AM |