New fuel

http://www.age85.org/ProjectDescription.htm
They're testing it on a 201 right now.

Interesting...the STC for 85% ethanol, or any mix of ethanol and 100LL has been
around since 1999 for the Cessna 180/182 series but nobody knows about it?

Taking it one step further, if the STC holds for any mix of ethanol and 100LL,
why wouldn't it hold for the gasahol from the local fillemup autogas store?

Jim



(Robert M. Gary)
shared these priceless pearls of wisdom:

-http://www.age85.org/ProjectDescription.htm
-They're testing it on a 201 right now.


Jim Weir (A&P/IA, CFI, & other good alphabet soup)
VP Eng RST Pres. Cyberchapter EAA Tech. Counselor
http://www.rst-engr.com

(Robert M. Gary) writes:

http://www.age85.org/ProjectDescription.htm
They're testing it on a 201 right now.

Allow me to strip a few leaves off the cob....


"This project began in July, 1996."

Hmmm...8 years and counting. Not zipping along, but not too lengthy
either as these things go.

"The purpose of the project was to develop a fuel based on ethanol..."

I gotta wonder...given that this is being done in the Mid-West...what
was more important: to base the new fuel heavily on ethanol, or to
find a replacement for 100LL? In other words, in a research project
to simply find the best replacement for 100LL, would it necessarily
end up as ethanol? Probably not. Is this a solution looking for a
problem?

"The South Dakota Corn utlization Council..."
Seeing misspellings in the main website for a project is like
misspellings on a resume--I immediately mistrust everything else.

"June, 1997 - Install Ethanol Engine"

Oh-oh. This requires new engines?? Or what?

"Mooney 201 Project
This project began Fall, 1999 and is our first attempt to work with
Lycoming engines. Equipped with a 200 HP IO-360, the fuel system for
this aircraft will be modified for operation on both AGE-85 and
avgas."

Or at least modification to fuel systems. How much modification...how
much will this cost?

Other questions: Doesn't ethanol have less energy / volume than
gasoline? So what about performance or range?

What sort of processing is needed to produce this...can it be done
cheaply on a national scale?

Somehow it doesn't look like something that will replace 100LL.

I got a can of TCP and will have to start using that.

"Bob Fry" wrote in message
...
(Robert M. Gary) writes:

http://www.age85.org/ProjectDescription.htm
They're testing it on a 201 right now.

Allow me to strip a few leaves off the cob....


Yet another ethanol scam. Hey, if you can't sell your corn, raise something
else. Don't use fraudulent studies to persuade politicians to force me to
buy it.

Robert M. Gary wrote:
http://www.age85.org/ProjectDescription.htm
They're testing it on a 201 right now.

Looking at the "project milestones" part of that webpage:

Project Milestones

* July, 1996 - Project Begins
* August, 1996 - Acquire Cessna 180
* January, 1997 - Team w/ TX Skyways
* June, 1997 - Install Ethanol Engine
* December, 1997 - Begin 500 Hour Fight Test
* November, 1998 - Finish 500 Hour Flight Test
* December, 1998 - Engine Teardown
* April, 1999 - FAA STC's Obtained
* July, 1999 - Project Expansion
* September, 1999 - Mooney 201 Acquired
* December, 1999 - Grumman Ag Cat Acquired


....it seems like they dropped off the face of the earth about 4 years
ago. The website itself has a 2003 copyright, but that of course
doesn't take much effort to update once in a while.

Well I'm not from the US, but it seems to me that you have quite the
farm lobby over there. I wouldn't be surprised if this is (or was,
depending on if the project actually is still alive) yet another
attempt by the farmers to peddle their wares with the help of
government subsidies.

I can't see why ethanol would be a particularly good fuel for planes;
it's hydrophilic (as opposed to gasoline or most petroleum products
which are hydrophobic), it eats rubber and has a low energy
content. Certainly not a straight replacement for avgas.


--
Janne Blomqvist

In article , Bob Fry wrote:
"The purpose of the project was to develop a fuel based on ethanol..."

I gotta wonder...given that this is being done in the Mid-West...what
was more important: to base the new fuel heavily on ethanol, or to
find a replacement for 100LL? In other words, in a research project
to simply find the best replacement for 100LL, would it necessarily
end up as ethanol? Probably not. Is this a solution looking for a
problem?

Perhaps a solution to the question about how the farmers can sell more
of their stuff...

Other questions: Doesn't ethanol have less energy / volume than
gasoline?

Yes, it's heating value is about 2/3 that of gasoline.

So what about performance or range?

Compared to autogas, ethanol has higher octane (ron=118, mon=100
IIRC), so compared to an autogas tuned engine you can increase the
compression and thus improve efficiency. That way one can compensate
somewhat for the lower heating value. OTOH, for an engine tuned for
high octane gas such as, oh, 100LL, you won't get this benefit.

What sort of processing is needed to produce this...can it be done
cheaply on a national scale?

If it could be done competetively the agricultural industry wouldn't
need massive government subsidies, would it? OTOH, if you would factor
in the price of a middle east presence to keep the oil flowing,
gasoline would be more expensive as well.

That does of course not mean that biofuels will be forever
uncompetetive. When oil supplies dwindle, the price will increase. At
the same time, more efficient ways of biofuel production are
developed.


--
Janne Blomqvist

"Janne Blomqvist" wrote in message
...
In article , Bob Fry wrote:
Other questions: Doesn't ethanol have less energy / volume than
gasoline?

Yes, it's heating value is about 2/3 that of gasoline.
:
When oil supplies dwindle, the price will increase. At
the same time, more efficient ways of biofuel production are
developed.

Question...how does the specific energy of corn oil compare with
Jet-A1 run in a diesel engine?

Tesco Supermarkets here in the UK now sell an "Ecodiesel"...it
has all of 5% biodiesel and costs 1p a litre more than their city
(reduced sulphur) diesel.

Paul

"Janne Blomqvist" wrote in message
...
Looking at the "project milestones" part of that webpage:

Project Milestones

* July, 1996 - Project Begins
* August, 1996 - Acquire Cessna 180
* January, 1997 - Team w/ TX Skyways
* June, 1997 - Install Ethanol Engine
* December, 1997 - Begin 500 Hour Fight Test

Hey, I wonder if I could get associated with some educational
institute then get a grant for running bio-diesel.

* September 2004, acquire Diamond DA40 tdi
* September 2004, acquire many gallons of corn oil from supermarket
* September 2004, begin 500 hour flight test

:-)

I can't see why ethanol would be a particularly good fuel for planes;
it's hydrophilic (as opposed to gasoline or most petroleum products
which are hydrophobic),

Does it matter if it has some water in it? It might reduce the power/
efficiency, but it's not going to come in bubbles/streams to cut the
engine completely as it does now with avgas?

it eats rubber and has a low energy
content. Certainly not a straight replacement for avgas.

How do cars in Brazil do on the stuff?

Paul

On Wed, 18 Aug 2004 09:09:53 +0300 (EEST), Janne Blomqvist
wrote:

If it could be done competetively the agricultural industry wouldn't
need massive government subsidies, would it?

For "industry," read Archer Daniels Midland. One company, one hand in
the taxpayer's pocket.

(Well, I suppose the farmers that ADM buys the corn from are also part
of the "industry.")

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

The Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
Expedition sailboat charters www.expeditionsail.com

Another tidbit for your information....

It takes a good fraction (and some experts even say it takes MORE) energy to
fertilize, grow, harvest, and process corn (or other plants?) to make
ethanol.....

And we are not counting the free solar energy from sunlight that grows the
crops either.....

Or in otherwords it takes something like 2/3 a gallon of gasoline/diesel to
perhaps as high as 1.5 gallons to make just one gallon of ethanol....I am going
on memory here.....

So, making ethanol only really makes sense if you use something like wind,
solar, or nuclear power to provide the vast majority of power and energy used
in the whole production cycle of ethanol....

If you dont do THAT, then your at best making a little more ethanol than the
gas you started with (and wasted alot of valuable food and land in the process)
and at worst you've actually ended up with LESS fuel than you started with (and
have totally wasted a non-renewable fuel source)....

take care

Blll