Looking for advice and opinions on learning navigation skills

I fly in a moderately difficult area with lots of landmarks, lots of woods and eastern USA scale hills and mountains and very few spots to land out. Flying into valleys and not having enough space to turn around is a possibility.

To date, I've relied on eyeballing the glide path to the airport and getting back close to the pattern with plenty of altitude to spare. I'm a navigational newbie.

I've just started getting into the approach of calculating in advance "safe altitudes" at landmarks; altitudes that guarantee a glide to the pattern at best L/D with a large safety margin. My plan is to study the chart and topo maps in advance, make a list of safe altitudes and landmarks (maybe on a 3X5 card) then practice picking out landmarks and observing altitude. Plan and execute some mini-tasks around the airport with altitude targets. I'm using one of the classic books that talks about how to do this. In short, develop navigational skills without a digital PNA. Once I have better "navigational sense" I will learn to use a PNA. I'll stand off or stay well above any valleys where I might have trouble turning around.

As I get into this and realize the difficulty and complexity of navigating on paper, I'm wondering whether my traditional paper-based approach is dumb.. Would it make more sense to start using a PNA sooner rather than later? I'm not suggesting that I rely blindly on the PNA, more like a combination of traditional methods with the PNA.

Is it smart or dumb to delay using a PNA for a season?

Are there any books that teach navigation with a combination PNA and paper based approach?

Are there any books that teach navigation with a combination PNA and paper based approach?

A small suggestion. "safety glides" here

http://faculty.chicagobooth.edu/john....htm#maccready

You have to understand what the PNA is saying. They typically compute glides that are way, way too optimistic for safety use. Do not set mac cready zero and think if you're above that you're safe.

The approach you're using is good. Use the standard rules of thumb, develop the mark I eyeball, learn the terrain by heart, and eventually cross check with a PNA that you really understand. Better to get back a few times ridiculously high than to scare yourself once. And even so, remember that four or five clicks with Russian Roulette doesn't make it safe. You're planning for the worst, not the average, and not "I got away with it last time so it must be ok."

John Cochrane

On 3/21/2013 3:31 PM, son_of_flubber wrote:
I fly in a moderately difficult area with lots of landmarks, lots of woods
and eastern USA scale hills and mountains and very few spots to land out.
Flying into valleys and not having enough space to turn around is a
possibility.

To date, I've relied on eyeballing the glide path to the airport and
getting back close to the pattern with plenty of altitude to spare. I'm a
navigational newbie.

I've just started getting into the approach of calculating in advance "safe
altitudes" at landmarks; altitudes that guarantee a glide to the pattern at
best L/D with a large safety margin. My plan is to study the chart and
topo maps in advance, make a list of safe altitudes and landmarks (maybe on
a 3X5 card) then practice picking out landmarks and observing altitude.
Plan and execute some mini-tasks around the airport with altitude targets.
I'm using one of the classic books that talks about how to do this. In
short, develop navigational skills without a digital PNA. Once I have
better "navigational sense" I will learn to use a PNA. I'll stand off or
stay well above any valleys where I might have trouble turning around.

As I get into this and realize the difficulty and complexity of navigating
on paper, I'm wondering whether my traditional paper-based approach is
dumb. Would it make more sense to start using a PNA sooner rather than
later? I'm not suggesting that I rely blindly on the PNA, more like a
combination of traditional methods with the PNA.

Is it smart or dumb to delay using a PNA for a season?

Are there any books that teach navigation with a combination PNA and paper
based approach?

I can't speak to any 1st-hand experience with a computer (of any sort other
than my built-in Mark I Gray Matter) in a glider cockpit, but your described
approach seems fundamentally sound as I read it.

No matter when you begin using a PNA, it won't improve your existing
decision-making skills one iota, though you might imagine/hope/believe it does.

Read everything you can. Pick every brain you can. (Both are fun to do.) If
you don't understand something from someone, keep asking 'em "Why do you
say/claim that?" until you're satisfied you truly comprehend their
reasoning...with which you may not agree.

Here's a link to an old article; nothing glider related in it needs updating,
though it was written over 20 years ago.
http://soarboulder.org/stories/kissing-tips-2

XC isn't fundamentally difficult from a conceptual standpoint. Nor need it be
fundamentally any riskier than your first solo, if approached sensibly, by
which I mean never lose sight of the fact the only certainty related to XC is
that you WILL be returning to earth. Fly accordionly, and it will be a hugely
fun, exhilarating, life-altering (in the good sense) blast!

HTH...

Bob W.

P.S. In my 1-26, I used 3 miles/1000' for planning purposes. In my 15-meter
glass and G-103 flying I used 5 miles/1000'. I also "proved" (to my
satisfaction, in local flying) those values were conservative in any
conditions I'd likely be going XC BEFORE I ever went XC, then religiously
checked how I was doing if lowish-ground clearance and/or prudence suggested I
needed to be checking. Five mile diameter rings/arcs drawn on paper charts
were my guide. No cheating allowed...IOW, you have to be directly abeam/atop
some landmark to claim as achieved, any distance based on using said landmark.

P.P.S. Eventually you WILL be flying XC and NOT be making good your assumed
glide ratio. No problem, so long as: 1) you always have a Plan B (and maybe
Plan C or D) in hand; and 2) you're aware of the fact you're doing worse than
you hoped! It goes without saying - or should, ha ha! - you IMplement a backup
plan sooner rather than later, should there be the merest hint of doubt in
your mind as to the validity of Plan A.

All great advice. The only thing I would add, and this is my personal rule,
is to never fly beyone gliding distance of a landable field; it doesn't have
to be an airport. Learn your territory as you expend your horizons and have
a great time! With that rule alone, I've flown my glider across the Rocky
Mountains and never had any damage. A few exciting moments, but never any
damage.


"Bob Whelan" wrote in message
...
On 3/21/2013 3:31 PM, son_of_flubber wrote:
I fly in a moderately difficult area with lots of landmarks, lots of
woods
and eastern USA scale hills and mountains and very few spots to land out.
Flying into valleys and not having enough space to turn around is a
possibility.

To date, I've relied on eyeballing the glide path to the airport and
getting back close to the pattern with plenty of altitude to spare. I'm
a
navigational newbie.

I've just started getting into the approach of calculating in advance
"safe
altitudes" at landmarks; altitudes that guarantee a glide to the pattern
at
best L/D with a large safety margin. My plan is to study the chart and
topo maps in advance, make a list of safe altitudes and landmarks (maybe
on
a 3X5 card) then practice picking out landmarks and observing altitude.
Plan and execute some mini-tasks around the airport with altitude
targets.
I'm using one of the classic books that talks about how to do this. In
short, develop navigational skills without a digital PNA. Once I have
better "navigational sense" I will learn to use a PNA. I'll stand off or
stay well above any valleys where I might have trouble turning around.

As I get into this and realize the difficulty and complexity of
navigating
on paper, I'm wondering whether my traditional paper-based approach is
dumb. Would it make more sense to start using a PNA sooner rather than
later? I'm not suggesting that I rely blindly on the PNA, more like a
combination of traditional methods with the PNA.

Is it smart or dumb to delay using a PNA for a season?

Are there any books that teach navigation with a combination PNA and
paper
based approach?

I can't speak to any 1st-hand experience with a computer (of any sort
other than my built-in Mark I Gray Matter) in a glider cockpit, but your
described approach seems fundamentally sound as I read it.

No matter when you begin using a PNA, it won't improve your existing
decision-making skills one iota, though you might imagine/hope/believe it
does.

Read everything you can. Pick every brain you can. (Both are fun to do.)
If you don't understand something from someone, keep asking 'em "Why do
you say/claim that?" until you're satisfied you truly comprehend their
reasoning...with which you may not agree.

Here's a link to an old article; nothing glider related in it needs
updating, though it was written over 20 years ago.
http://soarboulder.org/stories/kissing-tips-2

XC isn't fundamentally difficult from a conceptual standpoint. Nor need it
be fundamentally any riskier than your first solo, if approached sensibly,
by which I mean never lose sight of the fact the only certainty related
to XC is that you WILL be returning to earth. Fly accordionly, and it will
be a hugely fun, exhilarating, life-altering (in the good sense) blast!

HTH...

Bob W.

P.S. In my 1-26, I used 3 miles/1000' for planning purposes. In my
15-meter glass and G-103 flying I used 5 miles/1000'. I also "proved" (to
my satisfaction, in local flying) those values were conservative in any
conditions I'd likely be going XC BEFORE I ever went XC, then religiously
checked how I was doing if lowish-ground clearance and/or prudence
suggested I needed to be checking. Five mile diameter rings/arcs drawn on
paper charts were my guide. No cheating allowed...IOW, you have to be
directly abeam/atop some landmark to claim as achieved, any distance based
on using said landmark.

P.P.S. Eventually you WILL be flying XC and NOT be making good your
assumed glide ratio. No problem, so long as: 1) you always have a Plan B
(and maybe Plan C or D) in hand; and 2) you're aware of the fact you're
doing worse than you hoped! It goes without saying - or should, ha ha! -
you IMplement a backup plan sooner rather than later, should there be the
merest hint of doubt in your mind as to the validity of Plan A.

On 3/22/2013 10:30 AM, Dan Marotta wrote:
All great advice. The only thing I would add, and this is my personal rule,
is to never fly beyone gliding distance of a landable field; it doesn't have
to be an airport. Learn your territory as you expend your horizons and have a
great time! With that rule alone, I've flown my glider across the Rocky
Mountains and never had any damage. A few exciting moments, but never any
damage.


"Bob Whelan" wrote in message
...
On 3/21/2013 3:31 PM, son_of_flubber wrote:

Snip to save electrons...)

Here's a link to an old article; nothing glider related in it needs
updating, though it was written over 20 years ago.
http://soarboulder.org/stories/kissing-tips-2


"What Dan said." Careful reading of the linked article will detect he's not
the only Rocky Mountain XC pilot following that sage - "it goes without saying
(not!) - advice.

Putting it more bluntly. If Joe Glider Pilot goes beyond direct gliding
distance to the only known (key word) good field within JGP's reach, JGP is
(choose all which apply): a fool, filthy rich, woefully ignorant, no friend to
those in JGP's glider insurance pool.

WARNING!!! Dry humor may not translate well on RAS.

Bob W.

You can check out the following information on Russell Holtz's website on using a Glide Slope Ruler:
http://gliderbooks.com/downloads/
then click on "How to Make and Use a Glide Slope Ruler"

Sorry. Bad link. It should be:

http://gliderbooks.com/downloads.html

then click on "How to Make and Use a Glide Slope Ruler"

There is no replacement for competent flight instruction. If there are no local xc instructors in your area, I would encourage a road trip.

On Thursday, March 21, 2013 2:31:55 PM UTC-7, son_of_flubber wrote:
I fly in a moderately difficult area with lots of landmarks, lots of woods and eastern USA scale hills and mountains and very few spots to land out. Flying into valleys and not having enough space to turn around is a possibility.



To date, I've relied on eyeballing the glide path to the airport and getting back close to the pattern with plenty of altitude to spare. I'm a navigational newbie.



I've just started getting into the approach of calculating in advance "safe altitudes" at landmarks; altitudes that guarantee a glide to the pattern at best L/D with a large safety margin. My plan is to study the chart and topo maps in advance, make a list of safe altitudes and landmarks (maybe on a 3X5 card) then practice picking out landmarks and observing altitude. Plan and execute some mini-tasks around the airport with altitude targets. I'm using one of the classic books that talks about how to do this. In short, develop navigational skills without a digital PNA. Once I have better "navigational sense" I will learn to use a PNA. I'll stand off or stay well above any valleys where I might have trouble turning around.



As I get into this and realize the difficulty and complexity of navigating on paper, I'm wondering whether my traditional paper-based approach is dumb. Would it make more sense to start using a PNA sooner rather than later? I'm not suggesting that I rely blindly on the PNA, more like a combination of traditional methods with the PNA.



Is it smart or dumb to delay using a PNA for a season?



Are there any books that teach navigation with a combination PNA and paper based approach?

Learn what your polar is and how to use it and the SPEEDS TO FLY for each sailplane you fly, this will be the bare min. Always ask your self how far can I go at this altitude, which way is the wind blowing, +and where would I go if I had to land out, do not put your self in a position that there is no way out of. There is always a place to land and not hurt your self but you have to be committed to land and to give up your sailplane for the scrap yard. It is complacency that will get you, "that hill always saved me before". If you fly a lot of x country you will push your self and you will dig your self out of a hole once in a while, review each flight and ask your self "did I push to hard?". Remember we are a family and no one like to lose a family member, listen to the stories of the elders for there is wisdom in there words.

All excellent advices.
What I think many don't realize based on various discussions I had, is John's point about the impact of MC setting on safety glide. Many PDA soaring software going through the extra effort to sync the MC setting with the flight computer, which is a bad idea. The first thing you need to do when configuring your PDA soaring software is to decouple the MC setting between the two. Otherwise, when you fly conservatively (low MC setting) it will calculate way overly optimistic glides. As such you want to set the MC setting in your PDA high for safety while the MC setting in your Speed To Fly computer low, especially when trying to stay within safe glide of a waypoint. John's article explains this very well.

Ramy