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Converting a USA C of A from Standard to Experimental
New forum member, glad I found this resource!
I'm in the midst of purchasing an ASW-19 that has a Standard C of A...and am mulling over (because of some of the projects/instrumentation/maintenance/etc) if it would be beneficial to convert the certificate over to Experimental. If the conversion is possible: 1. How much of a hassle was/is it? 2. Was the conversion worth the effort or are the FAA requirements onerous? 3. How difficult would it be to put the genie back in the bottle (go back to Standard) if needed? 4. Who do I talk to at the FAA to accomplish this and what's needed in the way of paperwork? 5. Anything else to make me smarter on this topic? I tried to search this forum for the answer, but only found topics about going from Experimental to Standard. If there is a thread out there that covers "going the other way" a link to it would save typing and be much appreciated! Thanks, Rob S. |
#2
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Converting a USA C of A from Standard to Experimental
On Dec 2, 8:57*pm, RAS56 wrote:
New forum member, glad I found this resource! I'm in the midst of purchasing an ASW-19 that has a Standard C of A...and am mulling over (because of some of the projects/instrumentation/maintenance/etc) if it would be beneficial to convert the certificate over to Experimental. If the conversion is possible: 1. How much of a hassle was/is it? It's up to your FSDO, no real problem here in Sacramento...............I've done it twice! You will need a reason, something like; I would like to add winglets and there is no STC to do that, or Factory closed and parts no longer available, etc. 2. Was the conversion worth the effort or are the FAA requirements onerous? Write a letter explaining your reason and requesting experimental - exhibition & racing. If they grant your request, an inspector will come inspect the ship and type out your new airworthiness cert. This could be a DAR and he will charge for his services. 3. How difficult would it be to put the genie back in the bottle (go back to Standard) if needed? You will need a conformity inspection by the feds or an A&P scertifying the ship is in conformance with its type certificate. Any mods not covered by an STC must be removed....ie, winglets, etc. Once again, a DAR might be able to do this. By the way, DAR stands for designated airworthiness rep. 4. Who do I talk to at the FAA to accomplish this and what's needed in the way of paperwork? Call the maintenance section of your local FSDO. Good luck, JJ 5. Anything else to make me smarter on this topic? I tried to search this forum for the answer, but only found topics about going from Experimental to Standard. If there is a thread out there that covers "going the other way" a link to it would save typing and be much appreciated! Thanks, Rob S. -- RAS56 |
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Converting a USA C of A from Standard to Experimental
Rob,
I found the process of taking my ASW-19b to an Experimental TC to be easy. I called the local FSO, and talked with a real gentleman in the Airworthiness Branch. He asked me to fill out an 8130-6 form and provide a program letter, then he came out to verify that the aircraft existed, had a logbook, had Experimental placards, had a current Condition Inspection, and its serial number matched the paperwork. It took 10 minutes to complete. To me, the conversion was worth the effort because I could legally put on winglets and a lifting instrument panel, and inspections could now be done by an A&P without IA. The only "hassles" are (a) once a year you have to send a new program letter in to your local FSDO, listing places you are going to be exhibiting/racing, (b) if you fly it outside of the 300 nm "proficiency area" centered on your home base you have to fax where you're planning to fly, (c) you have to avoid flying over populated areas, (d) you have to announce to a towered airport that you are experimental, and (e) you can't use the ship commercially. Other than that, you simply make proficiency flights, like with any other glider. Going back to Standard TC involves the same process - an 8130-6, an annual inspection by an A&P (with IA), remove the Experimental placards. The gotcha is that they want to be certain that it's in the condition certified by the manufacturer. I'm sure this would be involved, although I've never done it. Frankly, I cannot imagine why you would ever want to - look at the hassle that the folks in Europe are having with EASA! -John On Dec 2, 11:57 pm, RAS56 wrote: New forum member, glad I found this resource! I'm in the midst of purchasing an ASW-19 that has a Standard C of A...and am mulling over (because of some of the projects/instrumentation/maintenance/etc) if it would be beneficial to convert the certificate over to Experimental. If the conversion is possible: 1. How much of a hassle was/is it? 2. Was the conversion worth the effort or are the FAA requirements onerous? 3. How difficult would it be to put the genie back in the bottle (go back to Standard) if needed? 4. Who do I talk to at the FAA to accomplish this and what's needed in the way of paperwork? 5. Anything else to make me smarter on this topic? I tried to search this forum for the answer, but only found topics about going from Experimental to Standard. If there is a thread out there that covers "going the other way" a link to it would save typing and be much appreciated! Thanks, Rob S. |
#4
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Thanks guys for all the gouge! I really appreciate it!!
Looks like my first call is to the FSDO closest to me...in San Antonio...that is unless someone has dealt with the ones in D/FW or Houston and had less headaches. Again, many thanks! Rob S. ps-any -19 owners done the lift up panel mod? Wondering if it is worth the hassle... |
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Converting a USA C of A from Standard to Experimental
On Dec 3, 3:18*pm, RAS56 wrote:
Thanks guys for all the gouge! I really appreciate it!! Looks like my first call is to the FSDO closest to me...in San Antonio...that is unless someone has dealt with the ones in D/FW or Houston and had less headaches. Again, many thanks! Rob S. ps-any -19 owners done the lift up panel mod? Wondering if it is worth the hassle... -- RAS56 I flew a 19b for 15 years and 1,500 hours and never had an issue with the fixed panel and I'm over 6ft tall. Don't change it unless you have a real reason to do so. The canopy gas strut is barely strong enough to hold up the canopy and is a real bitch to replace. Unlike some gliders the strut is still under compression when the canopy is fully open and you have to make a special tool that you hope will hold it compressed while you do the installation. Do a good job on the tool, if it lets go it could make quite a mess. Andy |
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Converting a USA C of A from Standard to Experimental
On Dec 2, 8:57*pm, RAS56 wrote:
New forum member, glad I found this resource! I'm in the midst of purchasing an ASW-19 that has a Standard C of A...and am mulling over (because of some of the projects/instrumentation/maintenance/etc) if it would be beneficial to convert the certificate over to Experimental. If the conversion is possible: 1. How much of a hassle was/is it? 2. Was the conversion worth the effort or are the FAA requirements onerous? 3. How difficult would it be to put the genie back in the bottle (go back to Standard) if needed? 4. Who do I talk to at the FAA to accomplish this and what's needed in the way of paperwork? 5. Anything else to make me smarter on this topic? I tried to search this forum for the answer, but only found topics about going from Experimental to Standard. If there is a thread out there that covers "going the other way" a link to it would save typing and be much appreciated! Thanks, Rob S. -- RAS56 Be sure this is what you want to do. An Experimental Certificate for Exhibition and Racing is what you will get. It will be limited to a geographic area, either by states or radius. The "Operating Limitations" will require an annual "Program Letter" to be sent to the local FSDO/FAA and placed in your aircraft folder. Without the annual filing of the Program Letter, your Certificate of Airworthiness validity may be in question until it is filed. The Program Letter should state any contests or planned flying outside of the area limitation specified in the Operating Limitation. Any flying outside of the Program Letter can be amended by faxing an update mid year. There is no "flying for fun", all flights are considered practicing for the next contest. Send an email to Cindy at Cal City, Carocole Soaring and ask her. She had a great article for SSA on this and you may find it if you search on SSA.org T |
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Converting a USA C of A from Standard to Experimental
On Dec 3, 8:23*pm, T wrote:
On Dec 2, 8:57*pm, RAS56 wrote: New forum member, glad I found this resource! I'm in the midst of purchasing an ASW-19 that has a Standard C of A...and am mulling over (because of some of the projects/instrumentation/maintenance/etc) if it would be beneficial to convert the certificate over to Experimental. If the conversion is possible: 1. How much of a hassle was/is it? 2. Was the conversion worth the effort or are the FAA requirements onerous? 3. How difficult would it be to put the genie back in the bottle (go back to Standard) if needed? 4. Who do I talk to at the FAA to accomplish this and what's needed in the way of paperwork? 5. Anything else to make me smarter on this topic? I tried to search this forum for the answer, but only found topics about going from Experimental to Standard. If there is a thread out there that covers "going the other way" a link to it would save typing and be much appreciated! Thanks, Rob S. -- RAS56 Be sure this is what you want to do. An Experimental Certificate for Exhibition and Racing is what you will get. It will be limited to a geographic area, either by states or radius. The "Operating Limitations" will require an annual "Program Letter" to be sent to the local FSDO/FAA and placed in your aircraft folder. Without the annual filing of the Program Letter, your Certificate of Airworthiness validity may be in question until it is filed. The Program Letter should state any contests or planned flying outside of the area limitation specified in the Operating Limitation. Any flying outside of the Program Letter can be amended by faxing an update mid year. There is no "flying for fun", all flights are considered practicing for the next contest. Send an email to Cindy at Cal City, Carocole Soaring and ask her. She had a great article for SSA on this and you may find it if you search on SSA.org T Yes, certainly a case of being careful what you wish for. One local pilot has had the Feds on his back for a while. They seem to be insisting 1. No fun flights, 2. OLC is not a contest, 3. If glider is based in State X then it can't be flown in State Y for the summer months if the summer location is more that 300nm from the base. Another local pilot changed his experimental ASW28 to standard cert just to avoid the hassle, but it cost a bunch for the DAR sign off. Standard cert was not available for my 28 when I imported it. If it had been I would have gone standard cert without hesitation. Anyway you don't need no winglets on a 19, nor a hinged panel as I said earlier. Just fly it and have fun. Andy |
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Converting a USA C of A from Standard to Experimental
Hmmm,
My program letter simply states; N422DT will be flown for SSA badge flights and regional and national soaring contests within the continental US. My FSDO has had no problem with this wording for the past 8 years. On the tilt up panel, it makes getting in and out much less of a hassle. It involves re-routing all electrical and pneumatic lines + re- installing all instruments in the new panel. Costs a good $2000 if you have it done. A new strut is requierd 1000n I believe. On replacing the canopy strut in a 19/20...Grind a groove in both ends of the new strut so a small cable can be fitted around the compressed strut and held in a loop with a nycompress sleeve. Then lower the canopy to line up the hole and insert bolt, then cut small cable off. JJ |
#9
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Converting a USA C of A from Standard to Experimental
I have owned three gliders with experimental certs. All you have to
do to fly outside of your 300nm radius is FAX a letter to the FSDO at the new location. Easy. As far as the local FSDO guy/gal saying that OLC doesn't count as a contest...it is supported by the SSA. Anyway, many of us have learned over the years that every person at every FSDO interprets the rules/ regs the way they want. And of course, their interpretation is the only correct one. Just smile, agree, say thank you and comply. Then move on. I love talking with FAA people at every opportunity to express my frustration with this culture of individual interpretations of the rules. The answers are even more entertaining. The small effort needed to write a Program Letter and to use a FAX machine when travelling is well worth it. Anyway, that's my spin on this topic. Guy |
#10
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Converting a USA C of A from Standard to Experimental
The "Operating Limitations" will require an annual "Program Letter" to
be sent to the local FSDO/FAA and placed in your aircraft folder. I have seen this. I have also seen Operating Limitations that do not specify that Program Letters be submitted. I have looked for a FAR or AC that requires Program Letters (in general) to be submitted for Experimental Aircraft. So far I haven't found any such regulation. -Pat |
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