TO RULES COMMETTEE PLEASE READ – Nationals no ballast day

Nationals can now declare a “No ballast” day without all pilots
agreeing.

A motor glider or a heavy glider will have a considerable advantage
especially on a good day if this rule is not modified.

Here is an example, imagine Diana 2 (420 lb empty with instruments)
competing with ASG-29 15 m (620 lb empty with instruments). A no
water
day was called.

Wing loading for each glider in a typical configuration (180 lb pilot
weight)

Diana 2 – 6.45 lb/sq foot.
ASG-29 15 m – 8.08 lb/sq foot

Diana 2 pilot does not have a chance. This glider needs some water to
fly at the same wing loading as other heavier gliders. There are more
examples I could give but I think my point is clear.

Please put a restriction on wing loading for those days when no tow
pilot wants to tow a fully loaded glider rather than declaring a “No
ballast day”.

The intention of this rules was good no one wants to lose a day, but
please don't create losers.

AK

On Jan 24, 3:59*pm, AK wrote:
Nationals can now declare a “No ballast” day without all pilots
agreeing.

A motor glider or a heavy glider will have a considerable advantage
especially on a good day if this rule is not modified.

Here is an example, imagine Diana 2 (420 lb empty with instruments)
competing with ASG-29 15 m (620 lb empty with instruments). A no
water
day was called.

Wing loading for each glider in a typical configuration (180 lb pilot
weight)

Diana 2 – 6.45 lb/sq foot.
ASG-29 15 m – 8.08 lb/sq foot
Wouldn't a "No ballast" day be declared on a weak day, thereby hurting
the high wing loading birds rather than giving them an advantage?

Matt

Diana 2 pilot does not have a chance. This glider needs some water to
fly at the same wing loading as other heavier gliders. There are more
examples I could give but I think my point is clear.

Please put a restriction on wing loading for those days when no tow
pilot wants to tow a fully loaded glider rather than declaring a “No
ballast day”.

The intention of this rules was good no one wants to lose a day, but
please don't create losers.

AK

Would likely be declared on a high wind day, especially if downwind
launches became necessary. This would highly favor the motor crowd,
especially penetrating upwind.

On Jan 25, 7:40*pm, "Matt Herron Jr." wrote:
On Jan 24, 3:59*pm, AK wrote:

Nationals can now declare a “No ballast” day without all pilots
agreeing.

A motor glider or a heavy glider will have a considerable advantage
especially on a good day if this rule is not modified.

Here is an example, imagine Diana 2 (420 lb empty with instruments)
competing with ASG-29 15 m (620 lb empty with instruments). A no
water
day was called.

Wing loading for each glider in a typical configuration (180 lb pilot
weight)

Diana 2 – 6.45 lb/sq foot.
ASG-29 15 m – 8.08 lb/sq foot

Wouldn't a "No ballast" day be declared on a weak day, thereby hurting
the high wing loading birds rather than giving them an advantage?

Matt



Diana 2 pilot does not have a chance. This glider needs some water to
fly at the same wing loading as other heavier gliders. There are more
examples I could give but I think my point is clear.

Please put a restriction on wing loading for those days when no tow
pilot wants to tow a fully loaded glider rather than declaring a “No
ballast day”.

The intention of this rules was good no one wants to lose a day, but
please don't create losers.

AK

On Jan 25, 7:44*pm, Kevin Christner wrote:
Would likely be declared on a high wind day, especially if downwind
launches became necessary. *This would highly favor the motor crowd,
especially penetrating upwind.

On Jan 25, 7:40*pm, "Matt Herron Jr." wrote:

On Jan 24, 3:59*pm, AK wrote:

Nationals can now declare a “No ballast” day without all pilots
agreeing.

A motor glider or a heavy glider will have a considerable advantage
especially on a good day if this rule is not modified.

Here is an example, imagine Diana 2 (420 lb empty with instruments)
competing with ASG-29 15 m (620 lb empty with instruments). A no
water
day was called.

Wing loading for each glider in a typical configuration (180 lb pilot
weight)

Diana 2 – 6.45 lb/sq foot.
ASG-29 15 m – 8.08 lb/sq foot

Wouldn't a "No ballast" day be declared on a weak day, thereby hurting
the high wing loading birds rather than giving them an advantage?

Matt

Diana 2 pilot does not have a chance. This glider needs some water to
fly at the same wing loading as other heavier gliders. There are more
examples I could give but I think my point is clear.

Please put a restriction on wing loading for those days when no tow
pilot wants to tow a fully loaded glider rather than declaring a “No
ballast day”.

The intention of this rules was good no one wants to lose a day, but
please don't create losers.

AK

Exactly that is my point! High density altitude also comes to mind as
a reason for “No ballast” day.

Different glider/pilot/engine configurations on such a day can create
winners and losers.

The wing loading differences for different pilot/glider/engine
configuration can easily be as high as 1.5-2 lb/sq foot. That is not a
small number when flying at Nationals.

For now I have no chances to be at the top of the pack at Nationals so
this rule will not affect me greatly however any unfairness is wrong
and I will simply not participate in a contest where this rule could
be applied.

AK

On Jan 25, 7:22*pm, AK wrote:
On Jan 25, 7:44*pm, Kevin Christner wrote:





Would likely be declared on a high wind day, especially if downwind
launches became necessary. *This would highly favor the motor crowd,
especially penetrating upwind.

On Jan 25, 7:40*pm, "Matt Herron Jr." wrote:

On Jan 24, 3:59*pm, AK wrote:

Nationals can now declare a “No ballast” day without all pilots
agreeing.

A motor glider or a heavy glider will have a considerable advantage
especially on a good day if this rule is not modified.

Here is an example, imagine Diana 2 (420 lb empty with instruments)
competing with ASG-29 15 m (620 lb empty with instruments). A no
water
day was called.

Wing loading for each glider in a typical configuration (180 lb pilot
weight)

Diana 2 – 6.45 lb/sq foot.
ASG-29 15 m – 8.08 lb/sq foot

Wouldn't a "No ballast" day be declared on a weak day, thereby hurting
the high wing loading birds rather than giving them an advantage?

Matt

Diana 2 pilot does not have a chance. This glider needs some water to
fly at the same wing loading as other heavier gliders. There are more
examples I could give but I think my point is clear.

Please put a restriction on wing loading for those days when no tow
pilot wants to tow a fully loaded glider rather than declaring a “No
ballast day”.

The intention of this rules was good no one wants to lose a day, but
please don't create losers.

AK

Exactly that is my point! High density altitude also comes to mind as
a reason for “No ballast” day.

Different glider/pilot/engine configurations on such a day can create
winners and losers.

The wing loading differences for different pilot/glider/engine
configuration can easily be as high as 1.5-2 lb/sq foot. That is not a
small number when flying at Nationals.

For now I have no chances to be at the top of the pack at Nationals so
this rule will not affect me greatly however any unfairness is wrong
and I will simply not participate in a contest where this rule could
be applied.

AK- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I believe that this is really targeted for an area like
Mifflin. What we get are heavy rain showers during the morning that
are pasing thur, with late day clearing. With the late day clearing
and now good ridge winds, a late day ridge task can be called, but
grid time is short and the window of opportunity is not large. Since
Mifflin needs a water tanker for ballast, and the fire dept. mans it,
they just can't sit out at the airport all day. Also, because of the
short window, we can't really rig in heavy rain and wind.
So, to get in a day, to expedite us into the air to fly, might
require this. When you have 50 gliders to water, the time involved is
close to 2 hours. The tanker has 4 hoses and the hanger has 2. @15
minutes per glider so now you get the picture of what is faced. You
also can carry non disposable balance.
My ASG 29/15 empty is 585 pds w/instruments and 1 battery. So, the
wing loadings are closer together than you post. I do know the CD's
from around the country, and will say that what they won't do is call
a task which is not fair or equal to all. Getting in a contest is
sometimes whats required and all the entrants I know will support
this, as the time required to run around and get everybody's yes or
no, we would lose the window.
When I fly in the 18 Meter configiration, I do add non
dispostable ballast to get me up to my legal weight of 1322 lbs. I
don't have a center tank and with my weight with full tanks only gets
to 1290 lbs. I have been weighted many times.
The days I speak of are really few and far between in Mifflin. Maybe
its better to think out the problem of a light wing loading and find a
simple fix than it is to miss out on a great afternoon of racing.
As far as density altitude, I do also fly out of the highest
density altitude airports seen in this country. I do this with full
water, at Max. gross, and yes, the climb is slow, but safety is not
compromised.
Passing up a National or Regional is experience that really
should not be missed. No matter where the guys or girls are at on the
score sheet, we need to remember where we have been, what we are doing
and where we are going.

I have seen and read alot of posts on RAS, including mine and I
do try to see everyone's view, but, as I spoke with someone last night
and then gave it some more thought today, I will add that this is the
USA and I have come to now believe I see nothing wrong with the IGC
adopting our rules for world competition.

Thermal tight, Soar high, Fly safe, #711.

On Jan 25, 10:17*pm, wrote:
On Jan 25, 7:22*pm, AK wrote:



On Jan 25, 7:44*pm, Kevin Christner wrote:

Would likely be declared on a high wind day, especially if downwind
launches became necessary. *This would highly favor the motor crowd,
especially penetrating upwind.

On Jan 25, 7:40*pm, "Matt Herron Jr." wrote:

On Jan 24, 3:59*pm, AK wrote:

Nationals can now declare a “No ballast” day without all pilots
agreeing.

A motor glider or a heavy glider will have a considerable advantage
especially on a good day if this rule is not modified.

Here is an example, imagine Diana 2 (420 lb empty with instruments)
competing with ASG-29 15 m (620 lb empty with instruments). A no
water
day was called.

Wing loading for each glider in a typical configuration (180 lb pilot
weight)

Diana 2 – 6.45 lb/sq foot.
ASG-29 15 m – 8.08 lb/sq foot

Wouldn't a "No ballast" day be declared on a weak day, thereby hurting
the high wing loading birds rather than giving them an advantage?

Matt

Diana 2 pilot does not have a chance. This glider needs some water to
fly at the same wing loading as other heavier gliders. There are more
examples I could give but I think my point is clear.

Please put a restriction on wing loading for those days when no tow
pilot wants to tow a fully loaded glider rather than declaring a “No
ballast day”.

The intention of this rules was good no one wants to lose a day, but
please don't create losers.

AK

Exactly that is my point! High density altitude also comes to mind as
a reason for “No ballast” day.

Different glider/pilot/engine configurations on such a day can create
winners and losers.

The wing loading differences for different pilot/glider/engine
configuration can easily be as high as 1.5-2 lb/sq foot. That is not a
small number when flying at Nationals.

For now I have no chances to be at the top of the pack at Nationals so
this rule will not affect me greatly however any unfairness is wrong
and I will simply not participate in a contest where this rule could
be applied.

AK- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

* * * *I believe that this is really targeted for an area like
Mifflin. What we get are heavy rain showers during the morning that
are pasing thur, with late day clearing. With the late day clearing
and now good ridge winds, a late day ridge task can be called, but
grid time is short and the window of opportunity is not large. Since
Mifflin needs a water tanker for ballast, and the fire dept. mans it,
they just can't sit out at the airport all day. Also, because of the
short window, we can't really rig in heavy rain and wind.
* * * So, to get in a day, to expedite us into the air to fly, might
require this. When you have 50 gliders to water, the time involved is
close to 2 hours. The tanker has 4 hoses and the hanger has 2. @15
minutes per glider so now you get the picture of what is faced. You
also can carry non disposable balance.
My ASG 29/15 empty is 585 pds w/instruments and 1 battery. So, the
wing loadings are closer together than you post. I do know the CD's
from around the country, and will say that what they won't do is call
a task which is not fair or equal to all. Getting in a contest is
sometimes whats required and all the entrants I know will support
this, as the time required to run around and get everybody's yes or
no, we would lose the window.
* * * *When I fly in the 18 Meter configiration, I do add non
dispostable ballast to get me up to my legal weight of 1322 lbs. I
don't have a center tank and with my weight with full tanks only gets
to 1290 lbs. I have been weighted many times.
The days I speak of are really few and far between in Mifflin. Maybe
its better to think out the problem of a light wing loading and find a
simple fix than it is to miss out on a great afternoon of racing.
* * * *As far as density altitude, I do also fly out of the highest
density altitude airports seen in this country. I do this with full
water, at Max. gross, and yes, the climb is slow, but safety is not
compromised.
* * * *Passing up a National or Regional is experience that really
should not be missed. No matter where the guys or girls are at on the
score sheet, we need to remember where we have been, what we are doing
and where we are going.

* * * *I have seen and read alot of posts on RAS, including mine and I
do try to see everyone's view, but, as I spoke with someone last night
and then gave it some more thought today, I will add that this is the
USA and I have come to now believe I see nothing wrong with the IGC
adopting our rules for world competition.

* * *Thermal tight, Soar high, Fly safe, #711.

711, thank you for taking time to reply to my post.

I spoke with an owner of ASG-29 15m/18m. I got a number from him 622
lb in a 15 m configuration.

The example you brought up is unfortunate because the higher wing
loading on the ridge or under a cumulus street will give more
advantage than on a typical thermal day.

It might be that I confused Nationals with fun. I thought the National
Contest was about competing not having fun or putting a day in. I
thought that part was secondary.

By the way 33% of responders to the poll agreed with me and 62%
disagreed.

Below is a quote from a pilot flying in a “no water” contest. A
similar thing can happen at Nationals.

“I competed against three ASH26 ships with motors vs my Lak-17AT with
sustainer. The difference in weight was 200 to as much as about 300
pounds! That is a rather large advantage to the ASH26 pilots in the
strong conditions at Parowan. I would like to see the playing field
leveled by assigning a handicap so that I don’t have to go out and buy
a ASH26 to be competitive. (I need all the help I can get} Im sure we
could come up with a mathematical formula based on wing loading to
help even the playing field. My initial calculations suggest somewhere
around a 5-7% handicap. Sincerely, Clay Thomas N44VH Lak-17AT”

I know this does not have a 100% relevance but it gets my point
across.

I certainly hope CDs will not use this rule, but maybe it should be
modified.

AK

Diana 2 – 6.45 lb/sq foot.
ASG-29 15 m – 8.08 lb/sq foot

My ASG-29 empty, straight from the factory with instruments, was 597
pounds. Add 180 for pilot, 10 for chute, 9 for the O2 bottle, 11 for
batteries, 3 for landout kit, 5 for drinking water, 7 fixed in the fin
and 12 fixed in the cockpit and my dry flight configuration is now 8.4
pounds/ft^2.

Diana 2 pilot does not have a chance.

Which is exactly what I had in mind when I chose the ASG-29 over the
Diana 2!

2NO

I had an e-mail exchange with RC on this subject. I failed to convince
them this rule should be improved. I accept it. I hope this is going
to be brought up for reconsideration in the near future, but it will
not be I who is going to speak up on this subject again.

Please feel free to comment on this rule if it is dear to your heart,
but I will give it a rest.

I don’t have competition experience the RC members have. I certainly
hope I am wrong and the RC is right.

AK

AK,

I understand your displeasure at the prospect of having a wing loading
disadvantage that you can do nothing about on a particular contest
day. But I do not understand your disagreement with the RC.

Yes a glider like the ASG-29/15M will have an advantage over the Diana
2 on a non-ballast day. But that assumes the conditions will be good.
The Diana 2 will have the advantage when conditions are weak, and the
-29 pilot will not be able to do a darn thing about it. Both pilots
picked their gliders before the contest with the advance knowledge
that some days they'll have an edge, some days they won't. It is
unreasonable to expect rules (and RC) to come up with "fairness" in
these situations.

Quod erat demonstrandum. Go fly.

2NO

Hello 2NO,

You are correct. I can say also Diana 2 shouldn't be dangerous to fly without water but dangerous to outland with water or other ballast....

Have experience with "Flying Diana 2" but also with "non flying" serial number and not only because I am light pilot but also because a lot of factory faults (production but also in design).

Suggestion for this trouble with "no ballast day". What about standard weight in cockpit? means Pilot + parachute + ballast which will be the some for all gliders? May be 90 kg limit and who will be over will be over... (or without BBQ from start of contest to minimalize this "natural handicap" )

BTW I understand AK also. He is Polish and Diana is Polish also. Try to find more about AK's Polish proud when you type in Google VH-VHZ. You will find also forums, where is AK trying to change usual rules between customer and producer...

Have a nice day,

Unhappy pilot experienced with Diana 2, serial No. 3 VH-VHZ

VHZ

PS. Now I know what it means VH-VHZ...
(Voodoo-Hunt -Victim Hana Zejdova)

PSS. Sorry for my English....

Originally Posted by Tuno

AK,

I understand your displeasure at the prospect of having a wing loading
disadvantage that you can do nothing about on a particular contest
day. But I do not understand your disagreement with the RC.

Yes a glider like the ASG-29/15M will have an advantage over the Diana
2 on a non-ballast day. But that assumes the conditions will be good.
The Diana 2 will have the advantage when conditions are weak, and the
-29 pilot will not be able to do a darn thing about it. Both pilots
picked their gliders before the contest with the advance knowledge
that some days they'll have an edge, some days they won't. It is
unreasonable to expect rules (and RC) to come up with "fairness" in
these situations.

Quod erat demonstrandum. Go fly.

2NO