C172S Landing accident

A solo student (not mine) had a landing accident today. Landed on the
nose wheel, porpoised a few times, and stalled the airplane in a
slightly nose down attitude. The student was unharmed, but the
aircraft is totaled.

Our flight school has been moving towards an all-new aircraft fleet.
It it wise to be putting solo students out in a $170,000 airplane?

On Sat, 26 Jul 2003 15:15:33 -0500, Greg Esres
wrote:

It it wise to be putting solo students out in a $170,000 airplane?


Sure..., just as long as they're able and willing to pay the $150-200
per hour rent that you're gonna have to charge them to help pay the
insurance premiums.

Neal wrote:

Sure..., just as long as they're able and willing to pay the $150-200
per hour rent that you're gonna have to charge them to help pay the
insurance premiums.

I've told you a million times not to exaggerate.

They're currently renting for around $100/hr at many places in the U.S.

George Patterson
The optimist feels that we live in the best of all possible worlds. The
pessimist is afraid that he's correct.
James Branch Cavel

Greg Esres wrote:
A solo student (not mine) had a landing accident today. Landed on the
nose wheel, porpoised a few times, and stalled the airplane in a
slightly nose down attitude. The student was unharmed, but the
aircraft is totaled.

*sigh*

One time not long after DH learned to fly, we arrived at the
airport to pick up our rented steed.

Uh-oh. News vans all over. Rescue vehicles.

Then we saw it: a C152, perched on the roof of a hangar. In order
to get there, he had to leave the 75 ft wide runway, cross a wide
grass strip to the taxiway, cross a wide ramp, and stall out onto
the hangar roof.

The soloing student was unhurt. He was damned lucky, he could
easily have been killed if he hadn't had a convenient hangar
roof to stall onto.

Our flight school has been moving towards an all-new aircraft fleet.
It it wise to be putting solo students out in a $170,000 airplane?

IMHO, it is unwise to be putting solo students out in any sort of
airplane if they don't "know when to go" (ie, know when to abort
a landing and go around) and have a reasonable safety margin of
proper reactions to a botched landing.

Cheers,
Sydney

if they don't "know when to go"

Probably the instructor is at fault, sometimes, when they teach
students how to "save" landings. The student isn't always capable of
determining which should be saved, and which shouldn't. I know I
scared myself once or twice as a student pilot.

Greg Esres wrote:
if they don't "know when to go"

Probably the instructor is at fault, sometimes, when they teach
students how to "save" landings. The student isn't always capable of
determining which should be saved, and which shouldn't. I know I
scared myself once or twice as a student pilot.

Well, there's a balance here. On the one hand, the student
does (IMO) need to be taught how to save a landing, because
something can go awry and the correct reaction needs to be
there. Just pushing in the throttle won't always do it.

OTOH, sometimes this is taught as almost a "normal" procedure,
rather than "when in doubt go around NOW". I think solo landings
should be like landings in a strong crosswind: plan to go around,
and if you find yourself over the runway correctly aligned at
the correct airspeed in the correct attitude, go ahead and land.

But that's just my opinion and I'm not a CFI.

Cheers,
Sydney

"Greg Esres" wrote in message
...
if they don't "know when to go"

Probably the instructor is at fault, sometimes, when they teach
students how to "save" landings. The student isn't always capable of
determining which should be saved, and which shouldn't. I know I
scared myself once or twice as a student pilot.

Agreed - my primary instructors never wanted to teach a go-around, but
always wanted to land (or touch-n-go) somehow or the other. I had to
practically beg my instructor to do a couple of G-A's. That was on the
lesson just before I had to do it for real, solo.

-- David Brooks

Student pilots are safer. Your fleet of
new 172's is in better hands than with
a bunch of weekend warrior pilots who
have to scrape the rust off their license
when they go for a $100 hamburger once
a month.

Ted

Greg Esres wrote:

A solo student (not mine) had a landing accident today. Landed on the
nose wheel, porpoised a few times, and stalled the airplane in a
slightly nose down attitude. The student was unharmed, but the
aircraft is totaled.

Our flight school has been moving towards an all-new aircraft fleet.
It it wise to be putting solo students out in a $170,000 airplane?

Your fleet of new 172's is in better hands than with a bunch of
weekend warrior pilots who have to scrape the rust off their license
when they go for a $100 hamburger once a month.


You're probably right about that. ;-)

"Greg Esres" wrote in message
news
A solo student (not mine) had a landing accident today. Landed on the
nose wheel, porpoised a few times, and stalled the airplane in a
slightly nose down attitude. The student was unharmed, but the
aircraft is totaled.

Had the student been trained specifically about porpoising? I ask because
(as far as I can recall) porpoising was never mentioned before my solo, or
even by the time I got my Private certificate. When I eventually did
porpoise an airplane (C172), I didn't immediately understand what was
happening. After the first bounce, the plane was just a few feet above the
ground, and I expected it to settle down. After the second bounce, the
porpoising was more pronounced, and I then recognized the phenomenon--not
from my training, but from a cartoon I'd seen somewhere that showed a
porpoising plane making progressively higher bounces before crashing
nose-first. That changed my expectation of what was about to happen, just
in time for the third bounce, which left me ten feet above the runway with
the bottom starting to drop out. But that was a situation I'd been
trained for, so I instantly added power and landed gently, with no damage.
(I later learned that pulling way back on the yoke is a good way to stop the
porpoising.)

Our flight school has been moving towards an all-new aircraft fleet.
It it wise to be putting solo students out in a $170,000 airplane?

A student who isn't ready to risk a $170,000 plane isn't ready to risk her
or his life.

--Gary